Posted on 01/10/2006 10:06:56 AM PST by Terriergal
It can. It depends on what it is based on. Consider the 'tradition' of passover for the Jews. I think it's a great tradition that should not be thrown out. People who demand it be thrown out because they just don't like it are just as bad as those who just want to keep tradition for sake of tradition. Traditions can be comforting, but if they are based in error, they should be modified or changed. If not, and especially if they teach something valuable or stand for something valuable (according to Scripture) they should not be lightly thrown aside just to please theoretical newcomer who may or may not have a problem with it.
You don't lean on your own understanding. You go directly to the Lord in prayer and put it in His hands. What if, say, they really aren't a believer, but think they are and just need the unjudgemental/unconditional love of the congregation that knows they can't play (and they know they can't play) and through that they finally understand His unconditional love to sinners, who never could and never will play the "righteous" organ well? There are several other scenarios we could come up with that it would God's will not to fire the organist - including the need for the congregation to be more loving toward the rotten playing. The bottom line is that God knows the hearts - theirs and ours and we don't know His will in a situation that will bring Him glory in their hearts. But He does!
For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven:
a time to be born, and a time to die;
a time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted;
a time to kill, and a time to heal;
a time to break down, and a time to build up;
a time to weep, and a time to laugh;
a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together;
a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
a time to seek, and a time to lose;
a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
a time to tear, and a time to sew;
a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
a time to love, and a time to hate;
a time for war, and a time for peace.
What gain has the worker from his toil? I have seen the business that God has given to the children of man to be busy with. He has made everything beautiful in its time.
And which specific passage are you referring to when you quote the blind man?
"BTW I am only a friend of God if he calls me friend... and that is only if I do what he has commanded - speak the truth with boldness, not catering to fleshly desires of unsaved people."
No, No, No, you are a friend of God because you are a child of God, even when sitting on a stand in camo in the freezing cold waiting for Bambi to come along.
btw yeah I don't know about the Christian flag thing -- seems like a Dominionist thought to me (as I understand it actually was a dominionist idea) though I only heard that recently.
The church we have attended occasionally now just had a big bruhaha about the flag. They pulled the flags (both the US flag and the Christian flag) away from being so close to the altar, but the church, not being purpose driven YET (there are some adherents in the ranks though and other errors and blurring of focus are creeping in) actually hashed this out in a very open fashion with everyone having their say, it got emotional, and a compromise was reached. Some families left, but were not forced out for 'noncompliance' or failure to sign a vow of faithfulness to the church structure. Some issued apologies. These things happen, but they should happen with openness and respect, love and understanding, not cold shoulders or unemotional kangaroo courts behind closed doors. They are very open about their troubles. They are not interested in putting on a facade of perfection to entice the world. They are far more interested in truth, knowing that alone, painful as the process is, will produce Godly fruit.
That comes naturally with a confrontation with Christ, does it not?
As I said earlier - it's kind of hard to quit your former course of living when you're being enticed to come in BY it!
So friendly greetings, 20th century music and coffee and blue jeans are all exclusive to the world? So we should all give up coffee, friendliness, modern music and blue jeans if we come to Christ?
"I think it would be clearer to say "felt needs does not equal REAL needs.""
If we are to love Him with our whole person, body, soul, mind and spirit, then felt needs are included.
"And the felt needs of the people who DON'T like rock music? What about them?"
Like people who don't like organ music and choirs, they go to a church that has their kind of music, if the music is that important. Or the church has multiple services with different music styles.
All churches are flawed. The question I ask when I choose a church is, "how flawed?". Do they diverge from basic biblical principles (as does mormonism), and things like that.
>>That comes naturally with a confrontation with Christ, does it not?<<
So the church should just permit it and say, "Bah, what's the big deal? Christ will handle it!"
The whole church should be filled with people who have "quit their former course of living", and therefore not use such devices to lure people into the building.
>>So we should all give up coffee, friendliness, modern music and blue jeans if we come to Christ?<<
Ok - either you're being stubborn or intentionally ignorant. See my earlier posts on "Conditional Worship" and "Bait n' Switch" for the answer you seek.
But the PD and seeker crowd have actually defined the word to mean the items I mentioned and the like.
Regardless, you won't see Christ appealing to the felt needs of unbelievers in Scripture.
Pastors are flawed people. None of them are perfect.
That's funny. The new Lakewood is right in my neighborhood. This last couple weeks they've put up a new sign, bigger than the one that says "Lakewood Church." This one, in different colors and lit up, says "Joel Osteen Ministries."
I do :)
> Our job is to get them to the place where they are confronted by Christ and his word. Christ's job is to convict them of their sins and draw them unto repentance. Or don't you believe that?
I do
Obviously you disagree with Gill who insisted that we need to compel them to come into the place where they are then confronted by the word of God, i.e., the house of worship.
Gill is one of my favorite commentaries. That is the "great commission" . It is our job to give the gospel message, it is the work of the spirit to fertilize that seed, to bring repentance and faith.
I just told someone on another thread, I never worry about it being rejected by the one I write it to, cause it is God that opens hearts and eyes. It will do just as he has intended, my intentions mean nothing. We are to press the gospel on men, invite them to church or do what ever is necessary for them to hear the gospel call.
In the reformation period they didn't have to entice people with smiles and coffee and a relaxed atmosphere to get the unchurched in the door, they could simply threaten them with bodily harm. We don't have that luxury anymore. Now all we can legally do is to entice them with our love and hit them over the head with the Gospel when they show up. Cast your line and reel it in. Tough love.
You know I really believe that God will work in us and in spite of us. We will invite many that may come for ever and never be saved, but that is not our concern, it is God that gives the increase.
I have no problem with having kids programs or vacation bible schools or young adults classes or even bowing if the only purpose is to see the gospel presented in some way. All too often it is cause the Pastor or leader wants good "numbers", so there is little to no investigation into the "results" of the altar calls. I wonder if they would rather not know :(
My major problem is that way too many churches never give solid meat to their members because they are always serving milk to the new comers/ visitors.
The church is to build up believers making them mature Christians able to take Christ out into the world (have an answer for the hope that is in you). The church was never the primary place of conversion, as you know during much of church history ( and Jewish tradition that the apostles came from) proselytes were not allowed into the church until they were baptized believers. The idea of making the church service the place of conversion is a fairly new phenomenon, and I see many problems with that practice and having the expectation that is where someone should be saved.
"Are you really equating felt needs with physical and spiritual needs?"
To the person who has "felt needs", I'm sure, they are as important and I don't see anywhere in the scripture where we are to differentiate. He came to, among other things, relieve suffering and felt needs are suffering.
The scripture is Luke 18:35 on.
>>"Joel Osteen Ministries."<<
Huh. How 'bout that? He must be back from his 1st class ski trip to Colorado.
Just in time to start talking more about "Emotional Bank Accounts"!
Why did God ask Adam 'where are you?' and 'what have you done?' is it because he didn't know?
I would also ask you to see how he responded to the answer to that same question to his disciples in v 36 of the same chapter. (Mark 10 btw)
in contrast, look at blind bartimaeus, pleading for mercy. He knew his helplessness. And Jesus saw his faith. The helpless blind man fought the crowds to get to him, because he knew only Jesus had the answer. That's far different from going with the crowd to be filled, as happened in John 6. Jesus did these things as signs, and then he rebuked (ch 6 v 26 & following) those who came for those things, and not for him, the true fulfillment of their REAL needs.
If Rick got up and said "you shouldnt' be coming here because of the catchy music, or the coffe, or even the fellowship. You should be coming here because of Jesus. Let me show you in more and more detail the truth about who Jesus is, because frankly, to your natural mind, he is offensive, just as Scripture says. He is a stumbling block. You must leave all your fleshly desires behind, and turn to him alone. You have nothing worthwhile to give him." But he does not.
While the Gospel is an offense...the PDL is not. That in itself says something.
Rick Warren even consulted Synagogue 3000 (do a keyword search using rick warren on FreeRepublic...you can read the article complete with Yom Kippur Yoga and disco dancing and such). Apparently, purpose driven can be Christ-less too (not just Christ-lite).
uhhh.. there are multitudes of writings by and stories about Rick Warren. There are transcripts of what he has said. (check the pewforum.org transcript of his poo pooing the five fundamentals as 'narrow' when it is actually the broadest definition of Christianity you can get!) There is plenty of material to piece together a great picture of his theology.
>>and felt needs are suffering.<<
Someone will "suffer" if they can't get a latte before the sermon?
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