Posted on 01/10/2006 10:06:56 AM PST by Terriergal
Our job is to compel them to come in the door. It is Christ's job to compel them to come into the FOLD. Or don't you believe that?
Our job is to get them to the place where they are confronted by Christ and his word. Christ's job is to convict them of their sins and draw them unto repentance. Or don't you believe that?
Obviously you disagree with Gill who insisted that we need to compel them to come into the place where they are then confronted by the word of God, i.e., the house of worship.
In the reformation period they didn't have to entice people with smiles and coffee and a relaxed atmosphere to get the unchurched in the door, they could simply threaten them with bodily harm. We don't have that luxury anymore. Now all we can legally do is to entice them with our love and hit them over the head with the Gospel when they show up. Cast your line and reel it in. Tough love.
Once again, you should probably do some research:
I am sure Warren was not referring to the fundamentals of the faith when he made reference to fundamentalists.
From his interview at pewforum.org
What does Rick Warren define Christian Fundamentalism to be?
In a May 2005 interview between Rick Warren and the Pew Forum on Religion, Warren stated:
"Today there really aren't that many Fundamentalists left; I don't know if you know that or not, but they are such a minority; there aren't that many Fundamentalists left in America ... Now the word 'fundamentalist' actually comes from a document in the 1920s called the Five Fundamentals of the Faith. And it is a very legalistic, narrow view of Christianity." Quote by Rick Warren, May 2005
What I am trying to say is that I question if the methods are "unbiblical" or just non-traditional.
Jesus was/is quite non-traditional. Change is a good thing sometimes. Judging a tree by it's fruit (and I don't mean monetary) is also a good way to look at this.
Regarding the fluff thing. What I've seen of Warrens work (I looked up some of it) DOES include meat. Like the apostles, some was "spiritual milk" and some was meat. I guess any judgment of Warrens words would have to consider the audience at the time they were being said
How do you judge its effectiveness? By how many people attend? By whether they sign a dotted line? Is that how we discern a person's spiritual condition? Rick Warren has grossly oversimplified what it means to be a Christian, and completely left out the Lordship of Christ and the complete Sovereignty of our triune God. Never does he think to warn 'be sure what you think you should do is ACTUALLY right. And this is how you learn to discern.'
No, even in PDL he poo poo's bible study, and recommends all kinds of corruptions if you MUSt study it, the Message being foremost.
Terrergal, how do you evangelize?
He implies that how traditional something is can give it substance and validity.
I hate the concept of tradition, as it validates precepts of my tradition. Jesus sure changed tradition. Left long enough, man can add quite a few "traditions of man" to his
"religion". The church I was going to tried to start using that ridiculous "Christian flag" complete with a pledge. It has been removed.
You are absolutely right on this one. I know we disagree on some things, but I am glad for your input. You do really think about things and wrestle with them. Sorry if I'm coming off as badgering. Having gone through what I went through at the hands of a just mildly purpose driven pastor, I have to say I'm a little passionate about the issue. But it's not the only issue attacking the church (as I see it). Just the most popular, right now.
"Christ performed miracles to fulfill prophecy and prove that He was Deity...not to meet felt needs."
Then why did He ask the blind man "What can I do for you?"
Can you provide a link directly to the page? The links are self referential so they try to go back to FR's server, and of course, are not to be found.
I agree, the article is not clear enough to respond accurately to it.
I agree, the article is not clear enough to respond accurately to it.
You mean like Marilyn Hickey's "Happy Church"?
http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/fridaynews/fridaynews030829.html
BEWARE OF MARILYN HICKEY. Friday Church News Notes, August 29, 2003 (David W. Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061, fbns@wayoflife.org, http://www.wayoflife.org, 866-295-4143) - Marilyn Hickey, the co-pastor of Happy Church in Denver, Colorado, is one of the most influential women charismatic leaders. She teaches the unscriptural and dangerous Word-Faith message. She claims that it is “always God’s will to heal” (Hickey’s ministry paper, Dec. 1988). She claims that sicknesses are “demon spirits” and that God never uses sickness or poverty to chasten believers (Marilyn Hickey Show, Oct. 1, 1998; Charisma, May 1991). She says: “What do you need? Start creating it. Start speaking about it. Start speaking it into being. Speak to your billfold. Say, ‘You big, thick billfold full of money.’ Speak to your checkbook. Say, ‘You, checkbook, you. You’ve never been so prosperous since I owned you. You’re just jammed full of money’ ... Say to your body, ‘You’re whole, body! Why, you just function so beautifully and so well. Why, body, you never have any problems. You’re a strong, healthy body.’ Or speak to your leg, or speak to your foot, or speak to your neck, or speak to your back; and once you have spoken and believe that you have received, and don’t go back on it. Speak to your wife, speak to your husband, speak to your circumstances; and speak faith to them to create in them and God will create what you are speaking” (Hickey, Claim Your Miracles, audiotape #186).
My lukewarm purpose-driveling ex church is. Why?
Boy, where did that come from? He didn't insult you.
>>They are not being brought in under false pretenses.<<
I say they are. They're being "sold" a product using creature comforts rather than the mighty sword of God.
>>Pharisicalism. (is that a word?)<<
I'm not sure, but I think a Pharisicle is a frozen treat for the non-believer. :-P
>>)... The fact that they have arrived is what is important and in that sense they are there by divine appointment. Correct?<<
Inasmuch as God is entirely sovereign and that nothing happens outside of His will, yes. But only He knows if said person is going to grow from teh visit, or become disillusioned and jaded by the subsequent "whip-up and let-down".
But one could also make that argument for going to a club, strip joint, or bar. "Hey, I'm here by divine appointment, right?!"
So it's kinda personal with you, huh?
Did you submit to the authority of your pastor? When you found out that you could not submit to the authority of your pastor, did you sew dissention or did you leave?
My pastor has chosen some paths that I have thought were wrong headed and questionable. Yet it is not my place to sew dissention. It turns out that most of the stupid things he has done have been pretty smart after all.
Your pastor chose to lead you down a different path than you wished to go. But he was the pastor. Your choice was to leave the flock or follow the shepherd. I suspect you chose to leave. Well, I suspect that you have a new pastor now and that you are happy with him and that you are following him. So why do you continue to sew dissention in the flock you left?
Oh boy, I don't know whether to laugh or cry over the "Happy church". Just...wow.
I'm reminded of a friend of mine in Tuscon who attends a church that idolizes Joel Osteen. The pastor of the church demands that he be called "Pastor Friend", and not his given name.
Our pastor just finished a sermon series on the fact that he's NOT our friend, and is not ever meant to be. He's been called to be a shepherd of the flock and a preacher of the Word, not our bestest buddy.
>>Change is a good thing sometimes.<<
The cannon of scripture is finished. God's revelation to us is complete. Why is there a need for something "new"? Did God not foresee evanelism in the 21st century?
The same model for preaching and reaching the lost as shown in Acts still applies today. There's nothing new under the sun.
What do you make of Paul saying 1 Cor 14 "if an unbeliever comes in to your assembly" -- apparently it was a rarity.
Come in the door of what? the church building. Is that where they get saved, or do they get saved because of what you witness to them in everyday life? If you are leaving it up to the crowd to do your evangelizing for you, that explains why you would take this stance. But that is not what we are called to do. The church is for the building up and equipping OF THE SAINTS to go out and evangelize IN THE WORLD where they are. I'm not saying you should never invite anyone to church who isn't a believer, but that is not how we are called to evangelize. That is a copout for believers too scared to stand alone in the world for Christ.
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