Posted on 01/10/2006 10:06:56 AM PST by Terriergal
What was the question Marlowe was asked yesterday?
Where do you get the worship of tradition in that report?
This is a report talking about the technique used to make changes in behavior or belief.
Nowhere did anyone say that evangelism does NOT take place in a building! also includes the Holy Spirit.
And let me repeat this also:
But we as individual are to be centered on Christ Jesus and when we are, then His love and His gospel will flow out of us like Living Water. We went down this same road earlier that you never addressed. When you do, then perhaps we can continue, but I don't see any Godly reason to do that again until that happens.
In the meantime, I pray that all will come more and more to a better knowledge of Christ Jesus our Lord in their lives - yielding their will unto His.
LOL -If I really said that, which I did not, then yes, I would be wrong. Silly boy! I will assume that you did not read my answer to marlow since you were probably writing at the same time. But here is what I said to him:
Reread what I said in #452 and #454 above where the word "anyone" also includes the Holy Spirit,
Nowhere did anyone say that evangelism does NOT take place in a building! also includes the Holy Spirit.
And let me repeat this also:
But we as individual are to be centered on Christ Jesus and when we are, then His love and His gospel will flow out of us like Living Water. We went down this same road earlier that you never addressed. When you do, then perhaps we can continue, but I don't see any Godly reason to do that again until that happens.
In the meantime, I pray that all will come more and more to a better knowledge of Christ Jesus our Lord in their lives - yielding their will unto His.
Take a breath, relax, read thoroughly and don't be so quick to judge others for doing what you accuse them of doing! :)
May you be filled the peace of Christ Jesus!
You got it right!
Just watch for purpose driven to enter the Catholic church. It's written vaguely enough ...
[this is often actually a formal technique called 'studied ambiguity' although many people do it unconsciously because they instinctively avoid confrontation]
... that you can take from it whatever you want. Warren is a pro at beauraucrat-speak, feeding each side just enough of what it wants to keep them coming back, and creating a false union between two opposing sides that cannot be reconciled and have no common ground.
It doesn't directly challenge anyone's *beliefs* at all - or tell you "in Christ alone" you should put your trust. It only challenges your personal preferences. Now, challenging personal preferences in itself is not bad. But it gives you no grounding upon which to make any decision regarding these things, so one's personal preference must be sacrificed for the preferences of the up-and-coming-crowd who manage to gain control, with no real thought for how it is affecting others who have something of intangible value to give to the church.
It also never specifies what message we are not to compromise. The messages I have always come away with from Rick himself and every other purpose driven or church growth pastor boils down to this:
"feeling down? Feeling stale? Feeling purposeless? not growing? Serve the church more!"
Serving the physical church oranization becomes the panacea for everything that ails you. Never are we told to withdraw, to get alone with God, to quietly study the Scriptures and be SURE what we are believing is true... and almost never to rely on other people, and especially not a mob of people, to give us our direction. This testing of everything, this challenging of Paul, is what we should be doing DAILY as the Bereans did (Acts 17) for which Paul COMMENDED them. In contrast, in purpose driven churches (with rare RARE exceptions) pastors disenfranchise those who challenge them, even if they are sincere believers.
Sad, isn't it?
Additionally, I'd add that you have a facilities-bound view of "church."
The building is to be used for "worship" in your view.
In mine, the facility is simply a building. I can use the sanctuary at one time for worship, at another time for a concert, and at another time for a conference.
A facility is multi-purpose and is not "holy ground."
The same one I've asked you 3 times already today, regarding the intent oF Warren's surveys.
"The very first step in Rick Warren's plan is to conduct a survey and find out why people in an area don't like church, then make the necessary changes to suit them. To make church more attractive to them. Correct?"
The follow-up point is:
"The motive for the church-goer at that point becomes their personal comfort and ease, not a desire to worship their creator with awe and reverence. You've now set the standard for their future attendance, and the moment they become uncomfortable, they'll be the first ones to leave. "
Thank you
I suppose. I don't know if that is the "very first step" or not. If he is walking with the Lord, I suspect that his very first step would be to pray for guidance. But if you say so.
"The motive for the church-goer at that point becomes their personal comfort and ease, not a desire to worship their creator with awe and reverence. You've now set the standard for their future attendance, and the moment they become uncomfortable, they'll be the first ones to leave. "
Who are you to judge the motives of people who show up at the doors of the church? Whatever method was used to get them to the door is irrelevant. The fact that they have arrived is what is important and in that sense they are there by divine appointment. Correct?
Have I answered your question? I do my best to give unto every man an answer. Sometimes (like this question) I do not see anything more than a rhetorical question. When you make a statement and then say "Correct?" and follow it up with a point, I view that as a rhetorical "correct?" and not a yes or no question.
So in direct answer to your question I will quote the Lord: "Thou sayest".
Again, I did NOT say, the bible does NOT say that evangelism cannot take church in a building or multi-purpose building. That was not the point then, it is not the point now. I understand that you think that that was my point. But that was not the point I was making and I do believe that you are reading into something that was never the issue. And you are now inferring things about me that you ought not. And somehow either I have failed to have you desire to understand or the problem is with you. Can we agree to put that lack of communication in the Lord's capable hands and leave it here rather than continue and have further issues? I believe He is more than capable of opening the eyes of those who desire His Truth. :)
I will avoid forming too strong an opinion about Rick Warren based on this article. That he groups Christian fundamentalists with Islamic fundamentalists is disturbing. He may be defining fundamentalism differently than most of us would, but he should be mindful of how his words will be received. If he is trying to sound inflammatory, he has succeeded.
RobRoy, I beg you ... read these articles on 'transitioning the established church.' This is stuff directly endorsed by Rick Warren himself. The book "Transitioning" by Dan Southerland is a very quick read and you should be able to get it at the library or through interlibrary loan (I wouldn't advise buying it and supporting it in any way). It is referenced extensivlely in the articles here, and has a glowing endorsement by Rick included. Keep in mind the following *titles* don't actually sound too bad. Just pay attention to the details of how they do it.
How to transition an established church – Part 1
by Chuck McAlister
Part 1 Plan Your Transition
http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=4702
Part 2 Become an Expert on the Process of Change
http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=4701
Part 3 Don't Be Afraid To Take Risks
http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=4768
Part 4 Simultaneously Transition Your Worship Style as you change
http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=4811
Part 5 Transition The Ministry Of The Church To The People And The Maintenance Of The Church To The Staff/Volunteer or Paid
http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=4844
Part 6 Transition the Educational Ministry of the Church from an Information-Imparting Ministry to a Life-Empowering Ministry
http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=4667
Be in the world but not of the world. There is a big difference. "Do not be conformed any longer to this world but be transformed..." (by the renewing of your outward actions? NO!)"... by the renewing of your mind." That means do not any longer think like the world. Marketing strategies for growing the church is thinking like the world. Targeting demographics is worldly. It is all right for businesses, but the church is not a business. When you run the church like a business, no wonder people are getting 'fired' for not conforming or 'producing' as well as the 'boss(es)' think(s) they should.
Is that a good clear enough answer?
If they don't like hard pews, am I wrong to put in cushioned, individual chairs?
Frankly, as I have heard, so is Rick Warren in his personal beliefs. So why is he hiding them and couching them when he gets a chance to speak about them publicly? Is he ashamed of his Lord?
Much in common with the preachers on TBN. "show your faith by supporting my ministry and God will"
A. "heal you" B. "make you happy" C. "give you lots of money" D. "make your marriage better" E. all of the above.
As another giant church pastor writes "his best lie yet."
read this:
"One of the great difficulties is to keep before the audience's mind the question of Truth. They always think you are recommending Christianity not because it is true but because it is good. And in the discussion they will at every moment try to escape from the issue "True--or False" into stuff about a good society, of morals, or the incomes of Bishops, or the Spanish Inquisition, or France, or Poland--or anything whatever. You have to keep forcing them back, and again back, to the real point. Only thus will you be able to undermine...their belief that a certain amount of "religion" is desirable but one mustn't carry it too far. One must keep on pointing out that Christianity is a statement which, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The one thing it cannot be is moderately important."
CS Lewis God in the Dock
>>Whatever method was used to get them to the door is irrelevant.<<
Not to the seeker-sensitive churches it isn't! Luring them in with shiny things is most relevant! Right? Whatever it takes, and such.
If they're brought in under false pretenses, it matters very much.
It ALL hinges on motives.
See my other comments on "conditional worship" and "bait n' switch" for follow-up.
I find it interesting that he never called himself the friend of sinners. He said "you are my friends if you do what I command." In that same section he says "I no LONGER call you servants" So apparently he did have that kind of 'relationship' with them at one point. Jesus was not a teddy bear who made everyone feel good about themselves. Least of all those who thought they were OK in their sin - both closet sinners, the pharisees, and blatant sinners. It was those who were heartbroken about their sin that he reached. And only those.
He said "they say, "Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'"
I have not called Rick warren any of those things. I have criticized his teaching and the words he speaks publicly. I applaud his concern for the downtrodden. That should be part of our mission and it should flow naturally from our knowledge of Scripture. But Rick puts the cart before the horse thinking that if we just are loving to someone that's enough, it doesn't matter if we tell them the truth or not. The biggest part of love IS telling the truth, even when it is uncomfortable, because only by truth can anyone really 'get their lives fixed' (for lack of a better way to say it) and get their eternity taken care of. And only by truth can God be glorified, which is the main thing.
If the truth of the message is lost (which I contend it has been, at least in his publicly available teachings), the concern for the downtrodden really means nothing in light of eternity. Faithfulness to Christ comes first, and from that comes all our mission.
They are not being brought in under false pretenses. That is a scurrilous charge. They have made their services more "seeker friendly". There is no biblical prohibition against being friendly or wearing jeans or drinking cokes in the assembly. IMO, Your attitude is pretty close to Pharisicalism. (is that a word?)
Now you appear to have failed to answer my question. Perhaps you missed it:
(assuming that nobody lied to them to get them in the door)... The fact that they have arrived is what is important and in that sense they are there by divine appointment. Correct?
Having been born in a musical family, and having been worship leaders in the church we were kicked out of, we have spent long hours day in and day out laboring over this.
Many of them are worldly. They are self centered, they focus more on our response and our feelings about God than on what he has done. Not all, but many.
there are some old hymns that also do this. they are not terrible, but they are shallow. An overabundance of shallow songs, by which seems to come most of the teaching in the church these days, leaves a believer spiritually anemic.
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