Posted on 01/10/2006 10:06:56 AM PST by Terriergal
Yes. Where is that found in Rick's book, PDL?
I don't get what you're saying. Rick was commenting on the five fundamentals being a narrow definition of Christianity. It's as wide open as you can get.
Why is that so hard to understand? Yeah sure there are narrower Christians, legalists, that call themselves fundamentalists, but that is not what he said.
Yup. Also keep an eye on Jim Wallis for this position.
Isn't that exactly what Rick Warren forces you to sign?
And at the other extreme (at least he fiqured it out):
To: attendees of Spring Meadow Creek Community Center
From: Pastor Andrew M. Slick
Subject: Change of Direction For The New Year
Dear Church:
During my annual winter sabbatical, which took place this year over the Christmas season, I decided to try something new. I put away all of my books on leadership and strategy, and focused instead - on understanding the Word of God, as well as on prayer and fasting. Through this time of prayerful reflection on God's Word, the Holy Spirit brought me to the point of conviction on many matters, the most significant of which are as follows:
I must confess that I used to say that not being relevant was a form of irreverence to God. But when I look back on it now, I see that my idea of "relevance" was not reverent to God's holiness at all. On my sabbatical, I read 1 John 2:15 which says "Do not love the world or the things in the world". It suddenly occurred to me that I was teaching our church to love the things of this world, through ideas like worship that's designed to sound just like secular music.
I made the mistake of regarding worship as an 'experience' rather than a heartfelt act of obedience; I should have asked God how He would like us to worship. Looking back on things now, I see that I was using the word "relevant" to mean - almost anything worldly that would get people to come to church. I confess that I disregarded the bible's commands to avoid worldliness, and did the opposite by using worldliness as "bait" for the unchurched. I know now that the evangelistic relevance that really matters - is the relevance of the Savior to lost sinners, and not our attempts at seeming relevant according to worldly standards, by talking like the world, looking like the world, and behaving like the world.
Because of my stubborn refusal to see that my idea of relevance was disobedient to God's commands against worldly conformity, I usually only preached sermons that I thought you would be interested in. Unlike God's prophets who were not results or numbers oriented, I was "afraid of the people". I was afraid you wouldn't come to church anymore if I lingered on topics like depravity and wrath and the right use of the law. I also preached too much about my own philosophies on life, and these often had little to do with what the bible says. It's clear that this caused many harmful consequences for our church.
You see, I had almost forgotten that people are born again by the Holy Spirit, and although I used to deny it, I had essentially been trying to save them myself, through clever techniques and human creativity. I know that I relied too much on the strategy formulas of men, and overlooked God's definition of what a successful pastor is. Looking back on it, I see now the damage caused to our church, by following these human strategies. I should have listened to those who tried to warn me, but instead, I shut them out.
I admit it. I bought the modern bill of goods that "doctrine divides", and because I felt that it was impractical and not really necessary, I neglected it, and even spoke-out against doctrine. I now realize that my doctrinal errors have lead to many practical errors in the way we've done things at our church. I understand finally, that I was wrong to diminish biblical teaching in favor of things that would make you feel involved and boost your self esteem. Regretfully, in doing this I was showing the Lord that I did not trust His Word. But from now on, I'm going to take
John MacArthur's advice, for pastors to spend a minimum of 20 hours per week in the study of the Word of God.
I'm done spending so much time reading things on topics that the bible does not call me to excel in, such as "leadership techniques". Often, these distracted me from loving my flock anyway, and showed me instead - how to manipulate you. I know now, that this was wrong.
I now realize that my goal of saving lost souls had become my own personal agenda, and an end unto itself. Instead, I should have realized that souls-saved are a means to an end, and - that end - is the glorification of God. I had been evangelizing for the wrong reasons. Had I really kept the end-goal (of God's glory) in mind, I would have cared about glorifying Him in my evangelism methods, rather than just trying to force results, using almost any tactics that persuaded people to make "decisions" for Christ.
Lastly, I believe now that I've confused the purpose of our church meetings. I finally understand that 'church' is not primarily for evangelizing the lost. I should have never tried to cause true believers, who didn't agree with my evangelism schemes, to feel unwelcome here. From now on, the unchurched are still invited to attend, but we're no longer going to try to make them feel comfortable through worldliness and entertainment. Like the churches of old,
if the normal means of preaching fails to convert them, then we will trust the sovereignty of God, rather than trying to save them ourselves through our own creative inventions. From now on, our church will focus on purity and not pragmatism, as God showed us to do in Acts.
I know that this letter will come as a big surprise to you, but as your pastor, I must be true to God, and not to man. I refuse to sell-out any longer, and I am putting aside my own dreams, goals, and desires to be creative. To whatever extent that those things had become idolatry to me, I now repent.
From this point forward - we are going back to a biblical plan for our church; a plan that follows God's strategy, and not man's. We are going to avoid getting off course again in our understanding of what the scriptures teach. Evangelism is VERY important, but from now on - it's going to be more of something that you do, than a primary mechanism of our church meetings.
I realize that as we step away from things like entertainment in church, our attendance may decrease, but this too is in the hands of the Almighty God. I now cast myself at His feet, and whatever happens from this point forward, I know is His will.
To God be the glory.
Devoted to Christ and to the sheep under my care,
Your Pastor, A.M. Slick
Through who?
So glad you see it right off!
Thank you. That is an encouraging reply.
I didn't say he doesn't have some good ideas. But you cannot compromise with a rattlesnake to get your 'godly' ideas accomplished.
I agree. I will admit I've been very emotional about this since I was essentially publicly dragged behind the purpose driven horse with my hands tied at my church, with no real explanation to the people of my church as to what my 'great sin' was except that I 'insulted' (rebuked) the pastor in an email which I also cc'd to two other men who had also tried to very GENTLY take him to task many times and for their efforts were disenfranchised and marginalized and given the cold shoulder.
BTW my pastor is scared of women. That didn't help. lol
Your point being? (for those who haven't seen the movie, like me)
That takes guts. Sounds like this pastor had a real awakening.
Jumping in late and having not read the entire conversation... do you mean "sign" literally? I've been a Saddleback member since 1999 and I've never signed any kind of covenant. Forgive me if that's not what you meant; I don't have time to go back and reread the discussion. Fifty new emails await me...
Have a great day, everyone! Day 24 of measurable rain in Seattle. Don't move here. :-)
I would agree with you here. And it is an excellent book. I highly recommend it.
I might as well. Going to church breaks my heart now, whereas opening the Bible does not. Maybe I should just stick to the Book.
We left a church that became polluted with Hybels stuff, which is not that much different than Warren. Same hymnal, different page. Church shopping was very discouraging for the reasons you described. But we did finally find a great conservative, fundamental and evangelical church that isn't off on some strange tangent. It is PCA church (although we were at another PCA church but weren't as comfortable). I have to say that after about 5 - 7 yrs of not being comfortable or actively seeking a church, I feel like I am truly at home. It is wonderful to be with other believers who put Christ and His word first in their lives.
I know many people in the same situation. Most have found church homes in the PCA, Orthodox Presbyterian, Reformed Baptist (we went to one in our area for a while, we liked it, but it is not where God directed us to be) and some other smaller Baptist or Evangelical Free (I think that is what it is called - senior moment at the moment!) or Cavalry churches. I am sure there are a few more, but I can't recall right now. My prayers are with you that you
Look at the purpose of the interview, the people asking the questions, the questions and the entire interview. You are taking a very small portion out of context. He explains what he means by Fundamentalism and why he and Jerry Falwell no longer are a part of the movement, not that they don't agree with the five Fundamentals.
http://pewforum.org/events/index.php?EventID=80
He does not force any one to sign anything. If you want to be part of the small group bible study then you agree with those in the group to accountable, just like in any other commitment. It has made our bible studies more intentional rather than the usual convenience. People used to wander in 15-20 minutes late unprepared until they commited themselves to being there prepared and on time and if they could not come notifying the bible study leader. We call it consideration for the others in the study. If you want to be a member of the church you agree with the covenant. If you don't agree you don't have to join but you can still attend and be part of the bible studies.
The problem with Christian Fundamentalists is that they've sort of spoiled evangelization for the rest of us. They are so annoying with the way that they are known to badger people about whether Jesus is their personal Lord and Savior that I hold them largely responsible for the hostility toward Christianity in this country. Not that a little proselytizing is anything like as bad as the leftists make it out to be. But most of us believe in Jesus' invitation to "Come and See", and that the Holy Spirit converts, we are powerless to do so. And that doing the works, as you described, is to show the face of Jesus in obedience to The Great Commission, and that wins hearts more than words.
Did you accuse your pastor of Apostasy? Or were you concerned that perhaps he had left his first love? The Church at Ephesus was not apostate. Warren has a different vision of the mission of his church. You disagree with it. You are free to find a new fellowship. Warren's sermons may be pablum for the spiritually filled, but they are often filled with milk for the spiritually weak and hope for the spiritually dead. Say what you will, but I suspect that they are a lot closer to the full gospel than you will get at a lot of other churches.
It does indeed. But any downsizing in church "membership" will be from goats running away, the sheep will remain.
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