Contradictions Between the Book of Mormon and the Bible

Institute for Religious Research ^ | 1999 | Luke P. Wilson

[restornu]

You cited this passage (minus context), Restornu ... at the end of the last large paragrah of your previous response.

Do you know what the promise to Abraham's is if man Keep his Convanent of the Lord?

This was my point!

In post #393 I did give links to the Promise to Abraham

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1555210/posts?page=393#393

Gosh, I can't keep repeating I know that you aren't familar, but there are patterns here a little there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept!

It is sad When one spend all their time trying to debunk instead of letting the Holy Spirit answer!

[Californiajones]

In the context that the fruit that God had forbade her and Adam to eat -- because they would die if they ate of this tree --

in the context that Satan lies to tell her that 1. God's Word was not true,
2. Not only was God's word not true, but that God didn't want them to eat of the tree because it would make Adam and Eve like gods

only THEN did the fruit of the forbidden tree become desirous.

That's where the cliche "forbidden fruit" comes from.

Eve had every possible variety and taste of fruit of all the other trees in the Garden. Her desire was prompted by the temptation that this forbidden fruit would make her wise -- i.e. 'like a god".

The temptation is that we shall be as gods. My initial idea in my post stands.

Further proof of this is that the First Commandment is that

We shall worship God with all our heart soul mind spirit etc., and have no other "gods" before Him. For He is a jealous God.

So idolatry or the LIE that anything other than God has His creative powers becomes the very first commandment. Jesus says that this and the second commandment are the most important. Idolatry is the most stupid and heinous sin to God because no one can be god or become a god. It's a ridiculous deception that unfortunately, we still fall for when we ascribe to other people or things godlike qualities or godlike standing IN OUR HEARTS.

That is the matter. God wants to reign and rule first in our hearts. It's ridiculous to think that we can be God. Again, my original post that the original sin is not to just eat some forbidden fruit -- the lie that we shall be as gods was the temptation that caused the Fall. That's the whole Judeo Christian universe. The Fall = Need for a Messiah But Mormons put themselves outside this universe in so many ways.

[restornu]

Are you Predestian or Free will?

[Californiajones]

"It is sad When one spend all their time trying to debunk instead of letting the Holy Spirit answer!"

restornu -- Quester IS letting the Holy Spirit answer. Through the Bible, which is where the Holy Spirit wrote it all down for us.

What in the world are you talking about with that question?

[DouglasKC]

In the context that the fruit that God had forbade her and Adam to eat -- because they would die if they ate of this tree --

Which as stated previously was the big lie. God denied access to the tree of life and Adam and Eve did surely die.

in the context that Satan lies to tell her that 1. God's Word was not true, 2. Not only was God's word not true, but that God didn't want them to eat of the tree because it would make Adam and Eve like gods

Well, you keep saying that. But scripture only says that she desired to know good and evil, or be wise.

Eve had every possible variety and taste of fruit of all the other trees in the Garden. Her desire was prompted by the temptation that this forbidden fruit would make her wise -- i.e. 'like a god".

Again, scripture states three reasons and three reasons only why she ate...good to eat, good to look at, and it would make her wise:

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

The temptation is that we shall be as gods. My initial idea in my post stands.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The name of the tree is "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil"...not "the tree that makes you become God".

Look, Satan could have used anything to tempt Eve. He appealed to her senses and her ego. It's the same tactics he uses today to cause sin. The whole point was to get Adam and Eve to disobey God. Disobedience to God CAUSED Adam and Eve to know good AND evil...caused them to become sinners.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Again, my original post that the original sin is not to just eat some forbidden fruit -- the lie that we shall be as gods was the temptation that caused the Fall. That's the whole Judeo Christian universe. The Fall = Need for a Messiah

The lie that we won't die (surely you won't die!) when we disobey God is what killed Adam and Eve and what makes us need Christ...our saviour.

So idolatry or the LIE that anything other than God has His creative powers becomes the very first commandment.

I think what you're doing is mixing up the desire to be independent of God with the desire to be like God. If by "like God" you mean the desire to have Godlike powers independent of God's will or control, then yes, that's egotism gone wild. But if you desire to be like God and act only in accordance with God's will then you WILL have Godlike powers. Jesus said so:

Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Luk 17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

Faith in God implies that you are doing God's will, that you're letting his will work through you. It denotes a desire to do God's work.

[Californiajones]

Free will is what the Bible is all about.

Just because God knows what is going to happen doesn't mean He made it happen -- for example, He doesn't make us sin.

Someone once said free will is that God has a videotape of the Superbowl in advance of the game. He knows the outcome, but free will is at work on the field.

[Loud Mime]

All this, of course, is based on the premise that one of the six thousand interpretations of the Bible is true.

Religions are a wash. The finest people I've met go to church, also some of the worst.

[restornu]

Someone once said free will is that God has a videotape of the Superbowl in advance of the game.

He knows the outcome, but free will is at work on the field.

cool..I like that?

[DouglasKC]

Religions are a wash. The finest people I've met go to church, also some of the worst.

Not surprising though. The bible says that Satan mixes his own into the church of God. Discernment of good and evil is the key.

[Seven_0]

The Fall in the Garden has to do with the Lie that we shall become as gods -- this was what tempted Eve (and Adam, btw).

I cannot find any evidence that the serpent spoke to Adam. My sense is that Adam was not present when Eve was tempted. He certainly was not deceived.

1 Tim 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Is it unreasonable to conclude that Adam choose to die with Eve, rather that to live without her?

[Californiajones]

Semantics. Adam "ate" and forsook his stand as the husband who "covers" his wife in the spiritual realm. Then he blamed her instead of taking responsibility for his actions! Real male role model, there.

[Californiajones]

"I think what you're doing is mixing up the desire to be independent of God with the desire to be like God. If by "like God" you mean the desire to have Godlike powers independent of God's will or control, then yes, that's egotism gone wild."

What you stated above is exactly what Eve was tempted into doing.

She disobeyed God -- by disobeying His Word -- in her desire to have Godlike qualities and powers independent of God's will or control.

She was not tempted by a nice piece of fruit. She was tempted by the inherent spiritual powers she thought were associated with eating the fruit.

It was the spiritual power she thought was in the fruit. Sort of like how people in the sixties took LSD thinking it would give them some big supernatural insight or understanding.

The desire to be god or to be worshiped as God is the big sin of the Fall in the Garden.

Why?

Because it was also Satan's sin.

Being the one trick pony he is, Satan proffered his own deception onto Eve. Satan wanted to be God and be worshiped as God. He knew that this would be the enticement to Eve -- the real temptation -- because it was the lie that he was himself deceived.

This is also why the first commandment is the first commandment:

Thou shall have no other gods before me, you shall love me with all your heart and all your mind and all your spirit and your soul. For I am a jealous God and will have no other Gods before me ... (my paraphrase)

This is the first commandment because idolatry comes so "naturally" to us with our Fallen natures.

In reality, when we disobey God, we are putting ourselves on the throne of our hearts as little gods. When we willfully sin, we are saying to God, I can deal with this -- but we never can.

Also, humans can never become gods. Jesus does say: "Be ye perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect", but this does not mean we will actually be perfect or be gods.

To be a god, one must be sinless. As for us, our sin natures have to be overcome daily.

The power of Jesus to heal to pray to love and to teach comes about by the gift of the Holy Spirit, but it comes into flawed vessels, ever at war with our spiritual nature. Thank you O God for sending your Son to redeem us.

Anyway, to reiterate, Eve had no compulsion to eat of the fruit except that she believed it would give her godlike powers and understanding outside of God's will or blessing or control. Her desire to be an autonomous god -- is the sin of idolatry -- Satan's sin also -- and it is the real sin of the Fall.

Eve wanted to be god. And she was willing to disobey God in order to obtain the serpent's promise in the fruit.

[Seven_0]

Semantics. Adam "ate" and forsook his stand as the husband who "covers" his wife in the spiritual realm. Then he blamed her instead of taking responsibility for his actions! Real male role model, there.

Semantics? Adam was not deceived. He ate the fruit, knowing that he would die. Suicide? Adam is a figure of Christ(Rom 5:14) and Eve, the Church.

[DouglasKC]

She was not tempted by a nice piece of fruit. She was tempted by the inherent spiritual powers she thought were associated with eating the fruit.
The desire to be god or to be worshiped as God is the big sin of the Fall in the Garden.

Okay, let's try another way. I've shown you scripture that explicitly says why Eve ate the fruit and disobeyed God. There's no guesswork.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Why do you insist that this doesn't mean what it says and where is the scripture that supports your position?

I've also shown you where scripture says that the sin in the garden was disobedience:

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Why do you insist that this doesn't mean what it says and where is the scripture that supports your position?

[Californiajones]

You keep skipping over that it does say

the woman saw... that it was a tree to be desired to make one wise.

I'm not denying it was disobedience at all. What I'm clarifying is that the itself was not that it was nice fruit to eat

IT CONTAINED WHAT EVE THOUGHT WAS SPIRITUAL POWER.

This line "Ye shall be as gods" was the thing that got to Eve.

Same thing that got to Satan.

It's putting something or something or self on the throne of your heart.

It's the reason why God asked Abraham to put his son up on the altar and raise a knife to him --

Isaac represented God's promise to Abraham.

God wanted to rule Abraham absolutely. He didn't even want Abraham to have the idolatry of the God's Promise to him be more important than Him.

Will finish later, on the phone now.

[restornu]

IT CONTAINED WHAT EVE THOUGHT WAS SPIRITUAL POWER.

This line "Ye shall be as gods" was the thing that got to Eve.

Same thing that got to Satan.

over 2000 years later CC can still read minds? LOL

No what got to Lucifer was to over throw the Heavenly Father and take over his Kingdom!

That is what the war in heaven was about!

Isa. 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

It makes me think of those Mythology names of gods who appeared to be petrified in the constellations and chained to a sea-cliff!

[Californiajones]

restornu:

what is the difference between what Satan tempted Eve with:

"Ye shall be like gods"

and what Satan was attempting to do: "I will be like the most High"?

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

? There is no difference, restornu. It was the same sin. Wanting to BE God.

This is idolatry and this is why the first commandment is the first commandment.

[Californiajones]

You wrote that the war in heaven is about Lucifer trying to overthrow God.

"... That is what the war in heaven was about!..."

But your quote needs to be in the present tense. The war in heaven is still rages. That's why Paul calls us to "pull down strongholds, and every argument that resists God"

Spiritual battle is portrayed perfectly when Satan tried to tempt Jesus in the wilderness. Satan used "biblical sounding" arguments from the Torah and the Old Testament to try to trip up Jesus.

But again, Jesus understood scripture's true meaning and resisted Satan's attempt to twist scripture.

(Don't forget how Satan asked Jesus to bow down to him! Such rank idolatry!)

Twisting scripture is one of Satan's biggest weapons -- as the Bible says
"to deceive the Elect".

So, when Joe Smith and company TWIST scripture. And ADD TO scripture. And MAKE MINCEMEAT out of the historicity of scripture --

uh

I have to do as Paul says and "pull down the arguments" and strongholds of Satan by using Scripture as prooftext.

That is what is called an "apologist" for the Word. That is what Jesus asks us to be.

So, don't forget, Satan also can "disguise himself as an angel of light" as well as he is master of twisting scripture.

All should be red flags to Mormons.

And I totally understand and believe in the offices of the Spirit as well as the gifts. However, they must operate in accordance with the Bible and no other book.

[restornu]

I told you I am dyslexic so I don't have control of the written language, tense etc as you do CC

I am the one who posted

Eph 6
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

how I wish you CC would work from a firm foundation

Quester has a good basic in the Bible and events!

At least have a firm foundation in the scriptures and events elsewise it is rambling mush!

[restornu]

It seems when those who you oppose use scriptue you don't read them you just go merrily on your way giving your reasons and oppinions that are not even close back up by scripture!

First of all both Adam and Eve were still in a state of innocents they had no knowledge of good and evil nor understood the consequence of temptation!

people fall under the spell of temptation every day does not mean they want to become gods!

KC posted it several times

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

Pss! have you notices that God is talking to someone else in Gen 3:22 and it is NOT Adam or Eve....who is us CC?

But I digree!:)

Temptation
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Eve was tempted and if she was not tempted neither you or I or anyone else would be having this conversation for we would never have been born!

The Lord removed them from the garden so they would not eat from the tree of eteranl life!

For the day they did eat of the tree of life, they would live forever and not have an increase!

Gen 3.
22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.