Posted on 01/04/2006 12:40:34 PM PST by Keyes2000mt
Its not a particularly pleasant post, but some things have to be said.
To start with, I enjoy the music of Steve Camp. He had some great hits, "Don't Tell Them Jesus Loves Them" (Until You're Ready to Love them too), "The Gospel According to Jesus," and "Revive Us, Oh Lord". His music always had a prophetic edge to it. The danger with the prophetic gift, is that you can get driven to a point where pride takes root and you begin to render harsh judgments on fellow believers. I've been close at time. I don't claim perfection on the matter. I'm a recovering self-righteous jerk and have to watch myself constantly and double check my posts to make sure I'm not crossing the line.
Having said, Camp has been crossing the line quite frequently with some of his comments on the Catholic Church. Well, not just on the Catholic Church, he's pretty well critical of anything going on in the church to make an impact on our nation. On his sprawling website (apparently no one ever suggested that he might want to ARCHIVE his posts on a seperate page rather than having them scroll on for eternity) he says Pope John Paul II woke up in "perdition":
Romansim has always propagated a gospel of Pelagianism or Semi-Pelagianism: works+faith, rather than faith alone; merit+grace, rather than grace alone
Romanism? That's right out of the 1884 Presidential campaign. Of course, Camp does have one ally in this stance.
I see something patently absurd in Camp's statement. If we are saved by faith alone, then if you have faith in Christ for your salvation, what does it matter if you believe that continuing in works of righteounsess is necessary to reaching heaven. For as scritpure tells us, "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord,".
So, we're to believe that the Pope, having put his faith in Christ and living a life, as best he saw in obedience to Christ shall then perish? To me, the thought seems to miss the point even of faith alone. Because what Camp is telling us is that faith alone wasn's sufficient to save the Pope because despite his faith in Christ, the Pope didn't believe in the same doctrine as Camp. If Faith in Christ alone is sufficient to save you then Catholics who have faith in Christ should be saved. The Gospel is simple:
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.-Romans 10:9
Its not about passing Steve Camp's, mine, or the Pope's theology test, its about coming to faith in Christ as Lord and Savior of your life. That's where its at. Camp is living in the 17th century, fighting an old argument. Honestly, I think that core of a lot of Reformed Arguments for "All Catholics Go to Hell" is the Catholic persecution of Protestants. Its thus an old grudge.
I would further suggest, extending to all churches that believe in the requirement of living a holy life the certainty of damnation. Start digging up articles on dead ministers from the Assembly of God , Church of God, Church of the Nazerence, and Mennonites, too. Aren't they all doomed under Camp's theology? Camp should tell us as he does seem to have the uncanny ability to know the eternal fate of people outside his particular movement.
Well, Camp escalated things with a so-called "parody" of the 12 days of Christmas:
On the twelfth day of Christ Mass my true Pope gave to me Twelve dead saints you pray to, eleven gay-priests leaping, ten hail Mary’s, nine inquisitions, eight monks flagellating, seven extreme unctions, six monsignors swaying, FIVE GOLD RELICS, four anathemas, three feisty nuns, two indulgences and time off in purgatory
Yeah, that's low. Particularly given the Vatican's latest move on this issue. Of course, us Protestants NEVER have sex scandals. See here and here.
This isn't to say I agree with everything the Catholic Church has to say. I don't. However, the Bible tells us to "get the beam out of our own eye." Its sad to see Camp so focused on bitterness and Catholic-bashing. He once really had something. These days, he preaches something different.
"The Gospel According to Camp"
Consider the cost of working with Catholics,
Its the Reformed way you must come,
For to do the will of the Father,
Is to bash the dead pope,
Will you hate them enough
To watch your culture die,
Will your hate them more
Than even your worst enemies,
To give all that you have
To attacking them
This is the Gospel According to Camp
Sad.
thank you.
Ah, good old-fashioned Reformed-bashing. It just wouldn't be the Religion Forum without it.
So, reform bashing on a thread about reforms bashing Catholics?
Ping to Nobdysfool, who knows a lot more about Christian musicians than I do, in case he knows what Camp's church affiliation is.
The link's broken. Try again. It would have been far more honest had you just posted a link to Camp's bio found on his site, wherein he has many nice words to say about Spurgeon, Piper, Sproul, and a host of other Reformed writers, and tells us that
in the fall of 1998 Steve joined the pastoral staff at Grace Community Church where he served a one-year position as Associate Pastor of Adult Single Ministries and Evangelism, alongside his long-term friend and mentor, John MacArthur, spearheading a mid-week, nondenominational outreach called The GraceBridge.His bio is far more direct than any graphic you could have posted - but your link demonstrates that you didn't bother to read or address any actual content on his website. Instead, like the article, you yourself would have us dismiss Camp outright for daring to associate with Reformed Christianity, ironically after the article acknowledges the "Catholic persecution of Protestants" in the past. Who's persecuting who?
In passing, I find it amusing that a Catholic(?) would be surprised to find non-Catholic (anti-Catholic?)content on a non-Catholic website written by a non-Catholic CCM musician. What were you expecting? I find it doubly amusing that you somehow missed these lyrics for sixteen years, found on Larry Norman's 1991 album Stranded in Babylon:
i don't believe the papacyIf I'm not supposed to be offended by the Council of Trent, I don't see why you should be surprised by CCM artists. But I do owe you a great thanks for one thing - while I had appreciated Camp's music and stance for many years, I had no idea Camp operated self-consciously from a Reformed background. I now have more to give God thanks and glory for, when it comes to Steve Camp.
when fallible lies are told
if they really want to help the poor
they should sell some of their gold
No, I'm not Catholic. I have read other things on his site and its not because he's Reformed that its the problem. Its a truly hateful attitude reflected towards Catholics (and I'm not Catholic.)
Rome's Religious Works: The Wide Road to Hell. Today, this very moment, such is the horrifying plight of Pope John Paul II if he continued in the false gospel of Romanist works righteousness to be saved (which he never recanted during his life in any manner whatsoever).
Well, Camp certainly deserves to be bashed, for bearing false witness against my imperfect but nevertheless saved Catholic brethren, anyway.
You nailed it, my friend.
And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to everyone, an apt teacher, forbearing, correcting his opponents with gentleness.--2 Tm 3:24-25a
Now read this, and tell me that you "give thanks to God for Steve Camp" when he writes vile trash like this:
On the twelfth day of Christ Mass my true Pope gave to me Twelve dead saints you pray to, eleven gay-priests leaping, ten hail Mary\u2019s, nine inquisitions, eight monks flagellating, seven extreme unctions, six monsignors swaying, FIVE GOLD RELICS, four anathemas, three feisty nuns, two indulgences and time off in purgatory
This was one of the reasons I didn't respond to this "article". If we started posting blogs around here then you could find all sorts of juicy personal opinions. I've read some real doozies by Catholics about Protestants so what's the big deal. This is just a hit piece.
IMHO it takes great courage for an artist like Steve Camp to come out and take a position; understanding that he is likely to alienate a lot of potential paying customers. Not only Catholics but Protestants who believe it's proper to be more ecumenical with Rome. Many "Christian" groups are simply trying to make their music appeal to everyone. God knows their motives but I find it hard to believe much of it isn't wrapped up in dollars or popularity for whatever good intentions they may have originally had.
Ecumenicalism is in these days. Standing up for doctrine is out. Steve Camp at least, right or wrong, has counted the cost.
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