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To: Old Mountain man
Hey thanks for the prayer.

However, in the Book of Revelation, John said that "anyone adds to the words in this book -- let him be accursed"

Paul says in Galatians:
If I, or if an angel from Heaven, preach to you another gospel, let him be accursed. -- because Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light.

Even Moses in the Song of Moses from Deuteronomy warns direly that anyone who adds to the Word of God is in huge trouble.

Why would this matter to a Mormon?

Because J. Smith and company complained that the 19th Century church and the word of God in the Bible were inadequate. And that God needed another revelation. Smith said that God needed an addition to His Word.

That makes no sense if you read the Bible. It contradicts the entire purpose of the Bible. NO WHERE does Jesus say, hey, and did you know that I'm heading over to South America. And NO WHERE did the Old Testament Prophets say ANYTHING about American Indians being the real Jews, or baptizing in proxy for the dead, or bigamy, or that men would inherit their own planet with tons of wives at their disposal in the afterlife.

But Satan, as proved when he tested Jesus in the wilderness, ALSO knows the Bible. Pretty well. But because he is damned, he can't really understand it. That's why he twisted the word when he told Jesus to thrown himself down from the parapet and kill himself.

What I would like to know is what biblical test does Joseph Smith pass -- from what I recall of the book of Mormon, it states that Jesus DID NOT come back in the flesh, only the Spirit, in some strange retelling of Jesus's showing of his hands to his disciples.

This, of course, means that Mormonism fails John's biggest test when we are called to "test the spirit" to see if it is from God or not. The spirit that denies that Jesus has come in the flesh is the NOT of God. I believe this is John 1.

And my emotional reaction to you, sir, is one of dire conviction. If you are willing to stand before a holy and righteous God and tell Him that you eschewed His word for the sake of a former Mason with magic eyeglasses and a penchant for lots of wives, funny underwear, secret rites, misogynistic attitudes toward women -- and led your family to do the same -- well, I know God's mercies are as high as the heavens.

For me, the only one I will be able to stand behind on that great day is Jesus, who is the Living Word made Flesh, and His finished work on the cross.
197 posted on 01/03/2006 2:09:06 PM PST by Californiajones ("The apprehension of beauty is the cure for apathy" - Thomas Aquinas)
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To: Californiajones

Ah, where to start...

You correctly paraphrased Revelation. The key is that Revelation talks about adding to "THIS book." To what book would John be referring? You seem to think it's the Bible, but of course that can't be so, because the Bible didn't even exist at the time, nor was it really even in the works. Second, even if he was talking about the Bible (which he obviously was not), it has undergone countless changes throughout the years, adding and subtracting to and from what is considered canon. The Bible you use today has undergone numerous additions and subtractions, so I guess by using it you're in the same camp as those who use the Book of Mormon.

Of course, however, you're not, because logically the book to which John is referring can only be the Book of Revelation itself. It's a warning about changing or editing the revelation that he received. Of course, Mormons have not done this, because they believe the Bible is the word of God and believe in Revelation, having not changed it.

Your next point quotes Galations, regarding the preching of other gospels. Mormons do not preach other gospels, they (claim to) preach the true gospel of Christ. Unfortunately, many aspects of the gospel had been or were unclear - this really can't be refuted, how else can one explain all the various sects? Mormonism teaches what they believe to be the true gospel of Christ, unchanged (as Paul requires). Of course, this is what all the other Christian faiths do as well - they teach what they believe to be the true gospel, but due to the uncertainties in the Bible, the best they can do is teach their personal interpretation. Mormonism, on the other hand, at least claims to have input from God in clearing up these uncertainties. All other faiths, by their own admission, can only hope to be preaching the true gospel that Paul speaks of. Nothing was added.

As for visiting the Americas, in John 10:16 Jesus says that he has other sheep who will hear his voice. This can easily be seen as Him saying that he is going to the Americas. Oh, and your "recollection" of the Book of Mormon is (shockingly) incorrect - Christ does appear to the people in the Americas in the flesh. This is because he has been ressurected.

Next, you say the Bible doesn't address Baptisms for the Dead? Check out 1 Corinthians 15:29 (Or else what will they do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead aren't raised at all, why then are they baptized for the dead?). Sounds like the saints were performing baptisms for the dead, and from the context of 1 Corinthins 15, it sounds like the the leaders of the church approved of this practice.

Finally, you are correct that we should test the spirit to see if something is from God. However, it seems as though you have failed to actually apply this admonition. Your convictions seem to be based upon your interpretations of text and on what you have been fed by anti-mormon sources. Have you ever actually read the Book of Mormon to test it by the spirit, by actually praying and asking the spirit to let you know whether or not it is true? It seems to me that you are using the tests of man and not the spirit to reach your conclusions.


202 posted on 01/03/2006 2:30:02 PM PST by ScratchHatch
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To: Californiajones
However, in the Book of Revelation, John said that "anyone adds to the words in this book -- let him be accursed"

The Book of Revelation, while it appears as the last book in The New Testament there was no New Testament in place when John wronte the Book of Revelations. The canon was not established until the late 300's. In 397 AD, at the Council of Carthage, the books of Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2nd and 3rd John and Jude were added to the canon for the first time. In addition, the Shepehered of Hermas, the Leter of Barnabas, the Gospel of the Hebrews, the Reveation of Peter, the Acts of Peter, the Didache, the Teaching of Twelve, and the Apostles were all removed from the Canon. To interpret that verse to mean that one can't add to the Bible would mean that one would have to throw out the books all of the books added in 397. In fact, at the time that John wrote the Book of Revelations, the only books that were part of the Canon were Luke, Romans, 1st and 2nd Corintians, Galations, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1st and 2nd Thessalonians, and Philemon. So, if you stick to your interpretation of that scripture in Revelations, then you would have to throw out Matthew, Mark, John, Acts, 1st and 2nd Timothy, Titus, Hebres, James, 1st and 2nd Peter, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John, and Jude. You would have to toss out well over half of the books in the New Testament. I don't think that you want to go there.

Even Moses in the Song of Moses from Deuteronomy warns direly that anyone who adds to the Word of God is in huge trouble.

Wow! So, now we'll have to throw out almost all of the books in the Old and New Testaments since they came after Deuteronomy.

Please, you really need to stop. You've callously taken the opportunity of a thread about the tragic shooting of a servant of God to attack the faith of the murdered young man and that of his family. I think that if you examine such behavior you will not find it to be consistant with what is commonly believed to be Christian behavior. I hope that you can refrain from such further behavior and go find other more interesting threads in which to post your opinions.

208 posted on 01/03/2006 2:40:16 PM PST by Spiff ("They start yelling, 'Murderer!' 'Traitor!' They call me by name." - Gael Murphy, Code Pink leader)
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To: Californiajones
Words we claim come from God Himself:

3 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.

4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?

...

6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?

7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

...

10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.
228 posted on 01/03/2006 3:45:27 PM PST by Adam-ondi-Ahman
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To: Californiajones

Yes, and we have no record of any man adding to the book of Revelation since its SELECTION for the Holy Bible, especially the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and you well know it. Perhaps you should read your scriptures. They are written in pretty plain English and it is clear context that those words were included in the Book of Revelations for that Book alone.

As to the rest of your balderdash - well it speaks for itself and when you twist the plain Word of God the way you do, watch out.


244 posted on 01/03/2006 4:34:31 PM PST by Old Mountain man (Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice!)
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