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To: kosta50
Our fallen nature is not sin, FK; it is a consequence of sin, a defect that is inherited through generations.

I know this is one point on which Protestants and Orthodox disagree very strongly. But even if sin is an inherited defect, how do you explain:

Rom. 6:23 : For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I was equating "sin" with spiritual death. I see it as much more than a wounding. Do you think that "death" in this verse only refers to physical death, when the context is as plain as day?

FK: "...it does not follow to me that we can take credit for the good we do."

Of course not! All goodness comes from God. When we do something good, give it to God. When people thank us, accept in the name of God.

How can you take no credit if you were the one who chose to do a good work, using your free will? You can't believe that God moves through us, as that would thwart free will. Therefore, if you cooperate, then why do you not deserve any credit?

8,274 posted on 06/09/2006 5:23:25 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
...even if sin is an inherited defect, how do you explain: Rom. 6:23 : For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

Sin is not an inherited defect, our tendency to sin and the resulting mortality are. Sin, in order to be sin, which is separation from God, must be a result of the will to sin, a conscious choice to go against virtue.

Virtue is not in our nature, FK; we are virtuous only if we follow in God's steps, imitating Christ. The more we choose to cleave to God in this manner, the more we become Christ-like. So, as we diminish in our fallen humanity, we grow in our likess of God.

What +Paul was saying is that if we choose sin, the wage for that choice will be (spiritual) death, and if we choose to follow God the reward will be our salvation (from death) by God's mercy. +Paul is reiterating Apostolic Church's teaching that we condemn ourselves, but we do not save oursleves.

The death of a soul is also not to be understood that the soul will disappear. Souls are immortal. The "death" of a soul as opposed to eternal "life" of a soul has to do with whether we will spend eternity in darkness and discomfort, or in presence of God.

The resurrection of the bodies at the Second Coming involves the righteous and the wicked. This means that both shall live, one in heaven, the other in hell.

How can you take no credit if you were the one who chose to do a good work, using your free will? You can't believe that God moves through us, as that would thwart free will. Therefore, if you cooperate, then why do you not deserve any credit?

It amazes me that after all that has been written on these 8,000-plus posts you still do not see it. I blame myself and those on "my side" for failing to do a better job of explaining.

Of course we believe that God moves through us, and of course it thwarts our fee will -- as much as getting married does! But, we choose to follow God, we plead that He guide us and work through us, that we may do His work in His name. It's a loving relationship, not something God imposed on us. It's all about love.

We also realize that nonthing is good except God, and that all goodness comes from God. So, when we do something good, it did not come from us, but from God. And we give all credit to God, thanking Him for bing His vehicle.

Taking credit would be vain, FK.

8,281 posted on 06/09/2006 6:25:45 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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