You responded : "When we believe.
John said that John (the Baptist) baptized with water, but Jesus' baptism ... was of the Spirit.
No doubt. John's baptism was a ritual. It is Baptism backed up by Christ's Spirit that saves, though, not only belief!
"And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied." Acts 19:1-6
The immediate section before, Luke again distinguishes between the baptism of John and the Baptism of the Spirit with regards to Apollos. From above, it should be clear that the Spirit does NOT come upon men "merely" at the point of belief.
The Scriptures is rife with verses that talk about the salvific action of the ritual of Baptism conducted so as the Spirit comes upon men. Faith doesn't bring the Spirit to men. God sends the Spirit when the Church executes Christ's command to baptize in the name of the Trinity.
By the way, nice to hear from you again.
Regards
"And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied." Acts 19:1-6<
The immediate section before, Luke again distinguishes between the baptism of John and the Baptism of the Spirit with regards to Apollos. From above, it should be clear that the Spirit does NOT come upon men "merely" at the point of belief.
Actually, the section you cite says that Paul came across certain disciples ... who knew nothing of the Holy Spirit.
How could one be a disciple of Jesus ... andd be ignorant of the the person of the Holy Spirit.
My conclusion was that these were disciples ... of John (the Baptist) and, as such, ... had only received his baptism (for repentence).
The fact that these hadn't, as yet, been baptized with with Jesus' baptism ... also supports this conclusion.
John may have pointed these to Jesus ... but they had yet to meet Him, either physically or spiritually.
I also note that the Holy Spirit came upon them when Paul laid hands on them ... not as of their christian baptism.
By the way, nice to hear from you again.
It is good to converse with you, as well.
I just found out that Randall passed away earlier this week. It is so difficult to understand. They actually found a marrow donor for Randall several weeks ago, ... but the doctors said that Randall, by then, was too weak to survive the transplant operation.
We had been praying for him to be strengthened so that he might receive the transplant. But it appears that it was not meant to be.
Thank-you, and all those who participated with you, ... for your prayers and kind intentions.
Please pray for the family ... that God might comfort them.
Thanks again,
Chuck