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To: Agrarian
FK: "Do the Orthodox make the same distinction between venial and mortal sin as the Catholics?"

No, not really. We do view sins on a sort of continuous spectrum, for all practical purposes. There are no categories of sins. Sin is sin, but yet some sins are more dangerous than others. The difference is this: Catholicism (and indeed the West in general) traditionally looks on sin as something for which payment or punishment is due.

OK, thanks. This is good for me to nail down. I absolutely do see sin as something for which payment or punishment is due (for example, Rom. 6:23). But like you, I see sin as sin (in the sense that no one is "half-sinning"), and yes, some sin is worse than other sin.

Orthodoxy looks on sin as something that injures ones soul and body, makes us spiritually sick, and puts a wall between us and God of our own making.

I agree with these words. Is it correct that you and I would agree that, as opposed to Catholicism, any one particular sin cannot cause a loss of a "saved" status? I see Protestants as believing that salvation is attained during life and that it cannot be lost through particular sin. I see Catholics as believing that salvation is attained during life and that it can be lost and regained multiple times based on sin, and forgiveness by a priest. I see Orthodoxy as believing that almost no one is really "saved" during life, and therefore a particular sin cannot cost someone what he doesn't have. Salvation comes only at the end, when theosis is reached. How's that? :)

8,035 posted on 06/07/2006 11:07:01 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; annalex; Kolokotronis

"Is it correct that you and I would agree that, as opposed to Catholicism, any one particular sin cannot cause a loss of a "saved" status? I see Protestants as believing that salvation is attained during life and that it cannot be lost through particular sin."

In Catholicism, only an unforgiven mortal sin can cause the loss of salvation for a baptized Christian. There is a specific list of mortal sins -- seven in number, I believe. An unforgiven venial sin does not keep one out of heaven, but one needs purification from it in purgatory. This is how I understand it.

Orthodoxy, as I have stated, doesn't have any of this rigorously defined, but we would certainly agree that if someone commits murder and hasn't repented, and then dies, he's not likely to go to heaven -- regardless of whether he has been baptized, or prayed the sinner's prayer, or whatever. Our belief is that it is the state of a person's soul at the time of death (i.e. you have to cross the finish line) that determines one's eternal fate.

So really, it is entirely possible in our view for someone not to have unconfessed mortal sins from the Catholic list, and still not be saved, if the orientation of one's soul is not toward God. It is likewise possible for someone to have committed a mortal sin, not yet have confessed it formally in church, but be truly repentant and oriented toward God at the time of death, and be saved. I would think that modern Catholicism probably has similar caveats that don't completely preclude someone dying with an unconfessed mortal sin from going to heaven. This is all hypothetical, since we can't know the fate of anyone.

In some ways, the Protestant belief that a person is "saved", and then has assurance that he will go to heaven, even if he commits sins prior to death, has similarities to the Catholic view. I would think that from what I understand, if a Catholic has no unconfessed mortal sins, he should *know* that he is saved, even if he commits multiple venial sins which go unconfessed. There is a forensic assurance there, even though it can still be lost through mortal sin and is not a permanent assurance. I'll ping annalex to see if I am representing Catholic belief fairly.

"Salvation comes only at the end, when theosis is reached"

Sort of true. Theosis (as I understand it) is really more of a process for most of us on earth. Few reach a true state of theosis while here on earth, but we hope that we are on the path to it -- a path that will continue in the next life, both in the intermediate state before we are reunited with our bodies at the Resurrection, and afterwards, when we are in the presence of Christ, body and soul reunited. The question at the time of death is whether we are headed down that path or not, and have our faces turned toward Christ, so to speak.

There is a "static" state of theosis that does amount to an equivalent of being saved, as I mention above -- this is achieved by few on earth, and will be reached by all who are saved, in the next life. But even in the next life, I do not see an end to the process of growing closer to God, and becoming more filled with grace. Whether this would be considered to be a continuation of the process of theosis, or something different, I'm not sure of. Kolokotronis would have insight, since I seem to remember having discussed this with him before.


8,054 posted on 06/07/2006 12:18:02 PM PDT by Agrarian
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