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To: Forest Keeper
There are bones moldering somewhere under the earth with all of their names on them. They are dead.

Where are the bones of Mary? You'd think that someone would know that, considering the attachment Catholics place on relics?

Their spirits are alive wherever they are, but Biblically speaking, they are dead.

Biblically speaking? Have you read the New Testament recently? When one is DEAD in the NT, it generally refers to SPIRITUAL DEATH!!! Medically, the saints are dead. But so what? They are more useful to us in that form, just as Christ said He was more "useful" when He told the Apostles that they would be better off after His death because then He would send the Advocate - and He Himself would be our Advocate to the Father. And the saints are also advocates for us.

Yes, He does, but not through people who have physically died, i.e. dead people.

Why not? Why wouldn't God joyfully allow His saints to be part of helping people come to Him? I sense that aversion to love again...

So these blind saints are more qualified to sympathize about blindness than Christ? You promote a closer connection with a dead person than with Christ directly?

Christ in His humanity wasn't blind. We don't see Him going through the trials a blind man would undergo. In His divinity, Christ nows all. But that part of Christ is incomprehensible to us. Christ is the perfect image of God and it is transmitted to us through His humanity.

You have just proved to me that Mary and the saints are in direct competition with God.

By writing: "You need to stop thinking of the saints and Mary as competition with God. HE MADE THEM WHAT THEY ARE/WERE!"? Whatever...

Next time you say "that lasagna was delicious", have the cook kick you in the pants because the lasagna stole the glory of the cook...

7,891 posted on 06/06/2006 9:34:27 AM PDT by jo kus (There is nothing colder than a Christian who doesn't care for the salvation of others - St.Crysostom)
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To: jo kus
Where are the bones of Mary? You'd think that someone would know that, considering the attachment Catholics place on relics?

My understanding is that most, if not all, of the grave sites of all the Apostles have never been positively identified. We also do not know for sure where the tomb of Jesus is, or where He was born. Where is His cross, and where is the Grail, etc.? For some reason God did not want us today to know these things. I don't know why.

Medically, the saints are dead. But so what? They are more useful to us in that form, just as Christ said He was more "useful" when He told the Apostles that they would be better off after His death because then He would send the Advocate - and He Himself would be our Advocate to the Father. And the saints are also advocates for us.

Where does the Bible tell us that saints are advocates for us? Jesus is our advocate, He and the Spirit. No one else. The word "mediator" really seems to have its own unique definition in Catholicism. It doesn't really seem to match the normal use in English. Since the saints appear to have the same function as Christ (mediation, advocacy, prayer, direct help during our lives, etc.) do you think of Christ as really more of a "first among saints"?

Why wouldn't God joyfully allow His saints to be part of helping people come to Him?

Why would He? He wouldn't because it takes focus away from Him, and puts it on dead people. This idea leads lay people to think that God needs help. This is another example of Catholicism transferring dependence of man away from God and putting it onto men.

The message of the Bible is that physical death means separation between the departed and the bereaved. That is why we are told it's good to grieve. Why grieve at all if we are still in contact with them? The Bible says that we are not to contact the dead. You might say that is only for evil spirits. However, as you are so fond of saying, you can't possibly know who is saved and who is lost. A vote by the Church hierarchy doesn't make someone saved, unless you are willing to admit that. I have even been told on this thread that it is permissible to pray to dead relatives, which is even worse.

Christ in His humanity wasn't blind. We don't see Him going through the trials a blind man would undergo. In His divinity, Christ knows all. But that part of Christ is incomprehensible to us. Christ is the perfect image of God and it is transmitted to us through His humanity.

Since when do you pray to the human nature of Christ? Do you not always pray to the divine? I still cannot understand why our Lord Jesus Christ is not sufficient. He is more than I will ever need. I believe all of my focus should be on Him and only Him.

Next time you say "that lasagna was delicious", have the cook kick you in the pants because the lasagna stole the glory of the cook...

Faulty analogy. Lasagna is an inanimate object and is not capable of doing anything. The compliment is necessarily directed at the cook, and every cook understands that. This case is different as history is packed with examples of worship being directed at false Gods. Our God thought the point was so important that He devoted a whole Commandment to it. Sharing God's glory with both dead and live people leads the laity away from God for their needs. As we become more dependent on dead people especially, our relationship with God suffers. But you would have me believe that this is what God wants. I disagree.

8,249 posted on 06/08/2006 6:09:47 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
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