Replies

"To say you believe what +Paul wrote is no answer at all."

Of course it is an answer. If the early church fathers moved away from Paul's position that we are saved by grace through faith alone, then they are wrong and in error. If the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches have rejected Paul's statement then they too are wrong. Why no one until Luther saw this is a mystery to me. Maybe they were too busy to notice they had moved away or maybe they were too comfortable to see they had veered from the truth. Maybe they liked the power that keeping the people coming back for their salvation brings. Maybe someone tore that page out of their scrolls.

The Holy Spirit didn't abandon them. They walked away from the truth and the Holy Spirit waited until some one like Luther came back to the light. I'm sure history has some lone souls during this period of the dark ages that believed the truth and paid dearly for it.

Now as to this, "You proclaim your belief in a sort of "pow, you're saved" theory of salvation and add to it a concept which says that once you get there, in this life as I understand it, you can never, ever, backslide but will simply go from one good deed to the next", I don't have the foggiest idea where you came up with this notion. Of course Christians backslide and sin, that's what 1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." is all about.

However to sin after one has trusted Christ for salvation does not mean one loses salvation; it just means one has sinned and needs to confess the sin to the Father, and repent of the sin in order to restore fellowship not family standing

"If the early church fathers moved away from Paul's position that we are saved by grace through faith alone, then they are wrong and in error. If the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches have rejected Paul's statement then they too are wrong."

Doesn't it strike you just a little odd that ALL the Fathers, even +Clement who knew +Paul interpreted his words differently from the way Protestantism does and did? These were the people the Romans were throwing to the lions, crucifying, slaying in the area, BD. I find it hard to believe that they immediately upon +Paul's death went on a power trip as the leaders of mostly poor people whose Christianity was tantamount to a death sentence.

"The Holy Spirit didn't abandon them. They walked away from the truth and the Holy Spirit waited until some one like Luther came back to the light."

What happened to those people from whom the Holy Spirit walked away, apparently the entire Church? Were none of them saved? Did they all go to "hell"?

"I'm sure history has some lone souls during this period of the dark ages that believed the truth and paid dearly for it."

No doubt, but are you saying that those dark ages started with the death of +Paul and lasted until roughly Luther without the Holy Spirit acting?

"I don't have the foggiest idea where you came up with this notion."

Gee, BD, what does OSAS mean? I've seen this all over this thread.

"However to sin after one has trusted Christ for salvation does not mean one loses salvation; it just means one has sinned and needs to confess the sin to the Father, and repent of the sin in order to restore fellowship not family standing"

Is there any difference between trusting Christ for salvation and actually being saved? And what happens if the saved person never repents?

"Why no one until Luther saw this is a mystery to me. Maybe they were too busy to notice they had moved away or maybe they were too comfortable to see they had veered from the truth."
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If the church becomes an extension of the state anyone who doesn't follow church teachings is not only committing heresy, but also is committing treason.

On another note, what about all those poor lost souls who were never taught the TRUTH about the SCRIPTURES. If Calvin was right those that were the elect were saved, but how? They had all been taught false doctrine believing in justification by works. How did they come to know the TRUTH?

If the early church fathers moved away from Paul's position that we are saved by grace through faith alone, then they are wrong and in error. If the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches have rejected Paul's statement then they too are wrong

Last time I checked, Luther wanted to throw out the Book of St. James. How right was that?

They [Church Fathers]walked away from the truth and the Holy Spirit waited until some one like Luther came back to the light...

...to urge his followers to sin boldly because God's love will givue you?

If the early church fathers moved away from Paul's position that we are saved by grace through faith alone, then they are wrong and in error.

Well, there's the rub. NO ONE looked at salvation as Protestants do today. Luther's "gospel" is an invention, a twisting of Pauline writings, specifically, Galatians and Romans. Luther found that Scripture doesn't teach salvation by faith alone, which was why he felt it necessary to delete James from the Canon and add "alone" in Romans 3:28. One wonders how a person can follow such a man with so little scruples as to actually change the sense of the written Word of God and delete books that Christians had considered as Scripture for 1200 years...

I'll vote that Luther and Protestants continue to be wrong on salvation by faith alone.

The Holy Spirit didn't abandon them. They walked away from the truth and the Holy Spirit waited until some one like Luther came back to the light.

Right. The pillar and foundation of the truth is actually Martin Luther...Wow. Who'd a thunk it?

However to sin after one has trusted Christ for salvation does not mean one loses salvation; it just means one has sinned and needs to confess the sin to the Father

Certainly. And if they don't?

Regards