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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; jo kus
are you saying that the child is instilled with literal faith at Baptism, but this faith remains dormant until actual belief, and that the God Parents do NOT somehow awaken that faith in the child, but rather use their own faith (as proxy) for the Baptism?

Our Lord Jesus Christ commands us to baptize in the name of Trinity. There must be a reason for it. He did not specify the age, but simply the manner.

Obviously, there is some difference between those who are baptized and who are not, or else Jesus would not have commanded us to baptize and be baptized.

Through Baptism, we are made acceptable to God. It is a petition for, and a mystery/sacrament of adoption. Clearly, those who have sinned must repent before being adopted. Infants and children have nothing to repent for, so they don't fast or confess, even if they could.

One's adoption must be in a state of being blameless before God. That's all.

There is nothing in it that requires you to stand or to recite, unless you have already sinnerd, which can happen only to adults. In such case, repentance and confession are the only way to present onself, even for a fleeting moment, as blameless before God.

Clearly, for one to wish to repent one must have faith. So faith is indepent of Baptism. You do not get baptized because you have faith; you get baptized because Christ commands it. It's all about God, not about you. It's God adopting you, not you adopting God.

As to whether the infant has a "dormant" faith or not is a ridiculous question. We all have "dormant" faith as God inscribed His laws in our hearts. We are all subject to His laws and we are all capable of righteousness if we cleave to God, in His name.

Some acknowledge them; others don't — just as the thief on the right side of our Lord as opposed to the proud and arrogant fool on His left.

The God Parents, who must be Orthodox, make a solemn promise that they will raise the child in Orthodox Faith. The acknowledgment of faith will be left up to the child when he or she grows up.

We don't let our children grow wild and wait until the "age of reason" for them to go to school. We put them in various educational institutions to learn the ways of life, language, habits, discipline, etc. so they learnt he ways of life on earth.

Likewise, the children are schooled in faith, first by being exposed to praxis and then to participate in it as they mature, so they may learn how to live in faith.

We school our children for this life and for the life to come. That is the orthodox way to raise children. We don't wait until they are "old enough" to wish to go to school.

7,654 posted on 06/03/2006 2:35:02 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis; jo kus
Obviously, there is some difference between those who are baptized and who are not, or else Jesus would not have commanded us to baptize and be baptized.

I agree with you, but I don't think it has the salvational importance that I am seeing from the other sides. Even including the exceptions we have discussed, under normal circumstances, I can't see someone who is a Christian in every other way going to hell for only wanting of Baptism. I know you have said that every true believer will want to get Baptized if he has not already been, and I just don't know one way or the other. I can't think of any examples of Jesus commanding a ritual for the purpose of salvation. To me, He focuses only on belief.

Clearly, for one to wish to repent one must have faith. So faith is independent of Baptism. You do not get baptized because you have faith; you get baptized because Christ commands it.

I substantially agree here as well, except that I would say that we DO get Baptized because we have faith. A regenerated heart wants to love and obey. Baptism is in obedience. You say that you get Baptized because Christ commands it, but who cares about following Christ's commands who is without faith? No one. Faith comes first and is essential to following Christ's commands.

As to whether the infant has a "dormant" faith or not is a ridiculous question. We all have "dormant" faith as God inscribed His laws in our hearts.

I suppose I will continue to ask ridiculous questions and you will continue to misread my posts. :) I wasn't talking about from birth.

The God Parents, who must be Orthodox, make a solemn promise that they will raise the child in Orthodox Faith. The acknowledgment of faith will be left up to the child when he or she grows up.

Does this mean that you don't recognize the Baptisms of Protestants and Catholics? Our equivalent to your infant Baptism is a "baby dedication". But in that ceremony, no pledge is made to raise a child as a Baptist, only as a Christian.

Likewise, the children are schooled in faith, first by being exposed to praxis and then to participate in it as they mature, so they may learn how to live in faith.

That's good. Our Sunday Schools start at age 3, and continue for life.

7,843 posted on 06/06/2006 1:13:59 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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