[HarleyD]

"...in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:15b-16

And would you classify me as "unlearned" (we won't get into "unstable")? There is nothing in Peter's verse that would indicate incorrect scripture "destroys". If that's the case we all are in trouble-including the Popes (past and present).

As far as our Lord Jesus discussions with Satan, if you'll recall Satan used incomplete verses or changed the text (as is typical). For example:

Psa 91:11-12 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. They shall bear thee up in [their] hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Matt 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Satan was using a variation of scripture, but not the scriptures themselves. Is it any wonder our Lord responded:
Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Really??!!! What do you think of your past views that were faulty? Or are you still wrong?!!

I was wrong then and I'm sure I'm wrong about some things that God has not revealed to me. But I'm not wrong about the TULIP. I understand completely what Augustine, Calvin, and others were driving at. That is the ONLY reason I keep harping about this to Orthodox, Catholics and Protestants until the cows come home (and I haven't heard the mooing yet).

However, that's the point of growing in Christ.

I held to false views before, and now I don't!

That's find. You have your convictions and I have mine. You and I both base our beliefs upon traditions handed down from those who have gone before us. Where we differ is that you believe God's grace resides in the Church and sole interpretation resides within an institution, making decisions through a set group of people who are supposedly more learner than you, casting votes for what they feel is right in guiding the Church. I, OTOH, believe God came to seek and save what He lost, gives grace and mercy according to His divine will, and to those who He is gracious to, He fosters a personal, intimate relationship, helping us to live and grow through His inspired word by the power of His Holy Spirit. We simply have our differences.

[wmfights]

"I, OTOH, believe God came to seek and save what He lost, gives grace and mercy according to His divine will, and to those who He is gracious to, He fosters a personal, intimate relationship, helping us to live and grow through His inspired word by the power of His Holy Spirit."
____________________________

Wow! That was well said. Count me in this group!

AMEN!

[jo kus]

And would you classify me as "unlearned"

Not by today's standards, you seem a very knowledgeable Christian. But by the standards of the text, an unlearned one would be a person who is not knowledgeable about the context taken by the Apostolic Tradition. One doesn't need to be an intellectual genius to read Scriptures (fortunately) but we must not forget that the Scriptures are a gift from God and read with the mind of the Church. They are not a "figure it out yourself" proposition.

There is nothing in Peter's verse that would indicate incorrect scripture "destroys"

Typical... If you repeat that enough, you might begin to believe it.

"...they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction

What do you think is the cause of this "destruction"? Simply put, another case of not understanding the Scriptures.

Satan was using a variation of scripture, but not the scriptures themselves. Is it any wonder our Lord responded:

Satan said "it is written". Did the Lord correct Satan's translation of the KJV? Did Jesus say "No Satan, don't you mean "lest at any time"? Crazy talk. Jesus doesn't correct Satan's translation, but the context he used. Jesus used Scripture vs. Scripture. Thus, my point remains Scripture can be used for good or bad. It can lead us to salvation, and it can destroy, when twisted to uphold one's own personal opinions. Like "can faith alone save?" can't possibly mean "faith alone doesn't save!"

I was wrong then and I'm sure I'm wrong about some things that God has not revealed to me. But I'm not wrong about the TULIP. I understand completely what Augustine, Calvin, and others were driving at.

I have shown your view of St. Augustine wrong. I have shown you that TULIP is not Biblical. The problem is that you are "once wrong always wrong" - according to your previous post... I, on the other hand, do not believe in fate and that a person is always wrong if previously wrong. There is hope for you, Harley!

Where we differ is that you believe God's grace resides in the Church and sole interpretation resides within an institution, making decisions through a set group of people who are supposedly more learner than you, casting votes for what they feel is right in guiding the Church.

I only respond when you make mistakes, Harley, so I respond again - the Church is God's instrument of grace. Grace only resides within it because it is the Body of Christ. The Church does NOT say a person cannot interpret Scriptures for themselves, as long as they fall within the analogy of faith passed down by the Apostles. It is not based on whether a person is smarter, but on GOD'S will to uphold His Church from error, as the Church is the "pillar and foundation of the truth". Unless you don't believe that this part of Scriptures are inspired, what have you to say about this verse?

We simply have our differences.

Certainly. I don't pretend they don't exist. If a person makes an informed decision and follows that conviction, so be it. My problem is with the straw man that many Protestants call "the Catholic Church" - and refuse to have anything to do with it.

Regards