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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus; HarleyD; George W. Bush; blue-duncan; stripes1776; Kolokotronis; Agrarian
My argument is that the remission of sins refers to the repentance, not the baptism

There are many definitions of baptism in the NT, which is no small source of confusion. Baptism is, however, a remission of sins no matter how you look at it — whether it is "washing of" sins, "whether it is "dying and resurrecting" into a new life (covenant with God), whether it is justification and conversion (and talking in tongues) by the Spirit, whether it is by repentance (and absolution), whether it is simple "adoption" of the soul by God, etc. — in every case it is an act of God that is wholly independent of our intellect, maturity, worldly righteousness, or anything else that we are or can be, anything else that we do or can do, anything that we can think or wish. It is a will of God, a gift, that mysteriously (sacramentally) establishes our relationship with God. It is a mystery no matter how you look at it, and cannot earn it or "qualify" for it.

Just because we perform an act (immersion, pouring, reciting) does not of itself guarantee it, and it does not make it real or even manifest to our senses. We do not see the Spirit descending, we do not hear God's voice "through the clouds" a nd we do not get a "certificate" signed by God that now, indeed, with our act of repentance, washing, praying, etc. God has adopted us. We believe that God in His mercy does. So your repentance is no more a guarantee that God now accept you than the "empty" sacraments of the Apostolic Church because God is not subject to your intellectual acceptance (or rejection) of Him — God is the way He is whether we believe, disbelieve, know or don't know: He pardons whomever He wills.

So, the ceremonies, whether by water or by profession of Sinner's Prayer, are not "works" by which we earn or rate acceptance by God, but are mere petitions in good faith by the believers that He accept us. Obviously, faith in God is needed to make the petition to God, but it does not mean that a soul being baptized must also believe and profess Gospel; only those making that petition. We can petition God to accept and have mercy on any soul, whether intellectually mature or mentally handicapped.

Thus, we place our faith in the prayers of the Church as petitions of the faithful which does not require the soul being baptized to be intellectually mature. However, in your case, the Protestants place a precondition on God's ability to accept us, based on our intellectual maturity! Not only is God forced to wait for us to grow up, but is actually forced to wait for us to repent to give us a chance! Talk about making God subject to necessity!

So, when you look at things outside the box, you begin to see that your rituals and your tradition are exactly what you criticize in others, and then some.

7,288 posted on 05/29/2006 5:01:58 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper; jo kus; George W. Bush; blue-duncan; stripes1776; Kolokotronis; Agrarian
However, in your case, the Protestants place a precondition on God's ability to accept us, based on our intellectual maturity!

Just a slight correction...while some Protestant faiths have morphed into "taking a leap of faith" this is not the true Reformed view. The Reformers believe that the promises of God are written in His holy scriptures. We do not rest on anything other than what God has stated. Thus, when God has stated, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved." this is a promise by which we trust God. Likewise when our Lord Jesus states that no one will snatch us out of His hands, we trust God that He will keep His word. We know His Spirit endwells us simply because He has stated so in His inspired word.

I will add that while the Reformed belief rests solely upon God's promise, every other belief feels that one has to do something whether it is being baptized, doing charitable things, or taking a "leap of faith". They all boil down to the same thing-something man has to do. Likewise, if I "feel" the Lord leading me to buy a Cadillac rather than a Ford, I will be sorely disappointed not to find it in the written word.

Reformed Protestants rests upon the promises of God.

7,292 posted on 05/29/2006 6:54:48 AM PDT by HarleyD ("Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures" Luke 24:45)
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To: kosta50; jo kus; HarleyD; George W. Bush; blue-duncan; stripes1776; Kolokotronis; Agrarian; ...
There are many definitions of baptism in the NT, which is no small source of confusion. Baptism is, however, a remission of sins no matter how you look at it ...

OK, if I'm following you, then I think I completely agree. I have said that the practice of water Baptism has nothing to do with the remission of sins. However, at the point of belief, I say that the Spirit indwells. At THAT point we are Baptized in the Spirit (born again), which is solely a work of God. If this is one of the definitions of Biblical Baptism you are talking about, then I'm with you all the way. :)

So your repentance is no more a guarantee that God now accept you than the "empty" sacraments of the Apostolic Church because God is not subject to your intellectual acceptance (or rejection) of Him — God is the way He is whether we believe, disbelieve, know or don't know: ...

Well, I sort of see this as a 'yes' and 'no' type thing. From God's POV the elect were accepted before they were born, so God is not making any decisions as to what to do with us in real time, IMO. So, the only issue to me is when do the elect actually become aware that they are of the elect. This does not happen at Baptism, especially at infant Baptism. It happens at the point of true belief. At that time there is a Spiritual Baptism, which is ceremonially recreated in the water Baptism, later.

So in truth the guarantee doesn't happen at the point of belief and repentance, but the elect's knowledge of the guarantee already made becomes known to the elect at this time.

Obviously, faith in God is needed to make the petition [for acceptance] to God, but it does not mean that a soul being baptized must also believe and profess Gospel; only those making that petition. We can petition God to accept and have mercy on any soul, whether intellectually mature or mentally handicapped.

This sounds like you are likening this to praying for another's salvation, but I think it's very different. All the time, I will pray to God for so-and-so to come to accept Him. I still face the same three possible answers I do with almost any other prayer, 'yes', 'no', or 'wait'. However, with my understanding of how you see water Baptism, there is only one answer: 'Yes'. Therefore, it really isn't a petition at all, since the result is guaranteed. It is more of a "directive". (Yes, I understand that in your heart you do not presume to order God around, but in this context, isn't this the effective result?)

In scripture, the only times I am aware of where a 'Yes' is guaranteed concern personal prayers for oneself. If you genuinely say the sinner's prayer you will be saved, and if you genuinely pray for forgiveness you will be forgiven, that sort of thing. However, I cannot pray or petition for anything on behalf of anyone else and be guaranteed an answer that I like. If I am right, then petition by proxy fails as an automatic 'yes', which defeats the whole point of infant Baptism under your beliefs.

However, in your case, the Protestants place a precondition on God's ability to accept us, based on our intellectual maturity! Not only is God forced to wait for us to grow up, but is actually forced to wait for us to repent to give us a chance!

As I said above, God isn't forced to wait for a second. God has already accepted all of His elect from the foundation of the world, the only trick is when do they become aware of it. My understanding of the Reformed view is that this truth becomes knowable to the elect at the point of belief, not Baptism.

7,410 posted on 05/31/2006 6:08:16 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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