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To: Forest Keeper
My problem with "God wants all men to be saved" is NOT that I think God doesn't have enough love to spread around. :) Rather, it is that it is one of those statements that God, for His own reasons, is not willing to MAKE happen. To me, it is like God saying He does not want anyone to sin. It's true, but God isn't going to effectuate it becoming true in full. I see this as very different from "God wants all of His elect to be saved".

Yes, as I have pointed out previously, God has two wills, which you seem to have picked up on. What "keeps" God from actually saving ALL men regardless is that God is Love. Love cannot but give of itself. Thus, God freely gives man that ability to choose. Even when God graces said man, it is the man in the end whom God allows to choose Him or not - as Moses and Joshua state: Choose! God has shown His "personality" to us through the Christ. Thus, we know that God "condescends" to man by allowing man to Love as well. God desires deeply a loving response to His initiatives. Thus, the result is the possibility of rejection! That is the chance we (and God) takes in Love. We (and God) makes themselves "vunerable" to the beloved, allowing the beloved to choose. Most certainly, God shows His love to us first - a very persuasive love.

I don't happen to think that God bases His grace decisions on His foreknowledge. But if He did, then He would detect a "no" answer on the part of someone who already had a "normal" level of grace.

As a Catholic, I can choose either option. I can believe that God uses His foreknowledge or not when choosing His elect. I happen to believe He does, but that's me.

If God had really wanted this person to be saved, then at the point of foreknowledge (the beginning), why couldn't God have "upped the juice"? :)

Good question, one we'll probably not know on this side of life. God must have some sort of a "balance" that says "That's enough. I have tried enough and this guy refuses me. He has decided to reject Me, so I leave this man to his own ways." On the other hand, if God DOESN'T use this foreknowledge, does God randomly choose men to elect? Who can say...

I thought you believed in single predestination. Is this a POV thing?

Yes, God predestines the elect, but WE don't know whom God has predestined for glory, only for grace. Once baptized or once we realize that we are obeying the commandments, we can know we have been predestined for grace - but this doesn't mean we are predestined for eternal glory - as the Bible clearly states that Christians return to the vomit of their past life, disinheriting the gift of Love. Again, this goes back to our different definitions of "salvation". You say it is a past event only. We say it is an ongoing event, past, present and future.

OK, I would call the group of those who turn to Him completely, the elect. If Christ only releases the burden of their sins, then we would agree that Christ did not die for the sins of all men, He only died for the sins of the elect.

He died for the sin of the world, as the Bible states. The problem is that the gift is freely given - and some men CHOOSE not to accept it. Again, understand that love is given freely and the beloved must accept the initiatives. When Christ talks about faith, He also invariably talks about man's response to God, for example, in John 3.

Regards

7,207 posted on 05/25/2006 8:23:13 PM PDT by jo kus (For love is of God; and everyone that loves is born of God, and knows God. 1Jn 4:7)
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To: jo kus
God desires deeply a loving response to His initiatives. Thus, the result is the possibility of rejection! That is the chance we (and God) takes in Love.

Alright, let's say for the sake of argument that God wants all men to be saved, and that God will not overpower our free will. How can both be accomplished, given God's abilities? It's very simple. Virtually every human is able to do a mental pro/con list about almost anything, right? In the raw truth of truth, such a pro/con list between eternal heaven or hell would be fairly lopsided, I would think. :) Any conscious person could look at that list and would make a completely free will decision for Christ. The only thing any person needs is THAT LIST.

Now, God of course has it within His full power to grant that list to every man. He would not be impeding free will at all, He would just be conveying information for free. And yet for some reason, God does not do that. Why not? Free will is NOT the price for all men to have the information necessary for a no-brainer decision. And yet it still doesn't happen. This is one reason I do not think God literally wants all men to be saved.

On the other hand, if God DOESN'T use this foreknowledge, does God randomly choose men to elect? Who can say...

Good question yourself. :) My take is that from our POV it sure can appear to look random, but from God's POV, He picks His elect before He makes them, so it can't be random. He says: "I'm going to make Frank, and he is going to be of the elect. I'm going to give him these qualities and this amount of grace to ensure that he will turn to me." OTOH, my beliefs are also that God will say at other times: "Now I'm going to make Ted, and he is not going to be of the elect. I'm going to use him in the course of my Divine Plan for my purposes, but he is not going to wind up in heaven". (I've got to admit the tough ones when they come up. :)

Once baptized or once we realize that we are obeying the commandments, we can know we have been predestined for grace - but this doesn't mean we are predestined for eternal glory ...

I'm not sure how you are using "predestined for grace". This supposes that there are those who are not predestined for grace, and I thought everyone was given "enough" grace. I must be misunderstanding.

7,323 posted on 05/30/2006 1:41:31 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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