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To: Forest Keeper
"...on what basis does man decide to accept God's gift of faith? Is it man-generated faith, as I have alleged? Or, is it rationalization and logic? Or, is it personal trust in a close friend who is a believer, etc.? If everyone has all the grace and information they need to accept Christ, then why does one man do it and another not do it? (This is ringing a bell for me, so maybe we've already covered this. Sorry, if true.)"

Faith is not man-generated, but man is not totally passive in his response to the gift of God. Does everyone have all the grace and information they need? Enough to condemn themselves or to accept the Law written on their hearts. God will judge man based on the knowledge that HE gives that man.

I do not believe man will be judged for salvation based on what he does.

I would further clarify that by noting that Scriptures have different definitions of "works". James says they ARE necessary - because he is refering to works of love, good deeds done with pure motive (of course, a gift from God). Paul talks about "works" where God now owes man a reward for obey the Law. Paul says nothing man can do makes God a debtor, thus, to Paul, this form of "work of the law" cannot save. Thus, I believe Protestants err by forcing ALL actions of man into Paul's definition of works, when the Scriptures clearly tell us that "faith [without works] cannot save".

The elect were selected before any of them were born, so what could they add or subtract from that based on anything they ever did? A Catholic is flexible on predestination and what part man has to do with this. We can take your view, the Thomist view, or we can take Molina's view that God forsees man's response. God's foresight does not mean God ordained it. Thus, God certainly can see man's response to His graces.

I believe that sometimes in the Bible, the reference to judgment is talking about rewards in heaven apart from salvation.

More often, much more, though, judgment of Christians is seen as either heaven or hell. This is the general context when deeds are mentioned in the case of judgment. For example, Revelation 20. One's love or lack thereof will determine whether one goes to heaven or hell. If the Bible even mentions such things ONCE, than Sola Fide is destroyed. On ALL occasions, our Lord makes it clear that judgment will separate the good from the evil, not the good from the better.

Regards

7,056 posted on 05/23/2006 9:49:07 AM PDT by jo kus (For love is of God; and everyone that loves is born of God, and knows God. 1Jn 4:7)
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To: jo kus
I would further clarify that by noting that Scriptures have different definitions of "works". James says they ARE necessary - because he is referring to works of love, good deeds done with pure motive (of course, a gift from God). Paul talks about "works" where God now owes man a reward for obey the Law. Paul says nothing man can do makes God a debtor, thus, to Paul, this form of "work of the law" cannot save.

That sounds like a pretty good distinction between the approaches of James and Paul. That one has troubled me before. :)

Thus, I believe Protestants err by forcing ALL actions of man into Paul's definition of works, when the Scriptures clearly tell us that "faith [without works] cannot save".

Well, why wouldn't our idea of Perseverance of the Saints coupled with Eph. 2:8-9 solve for both views above? I consider the "perseverance" part as a future included event to the original grace of salvation. Therefore, the two Solas survive.

Imagine Albert Pujols, of the 2006 World Champion St. Louis Cardinals, was at the plate and blasted a 400-footer into left center. :) He uncharacteristically stops to watch it before he starts running. The ball clears the fence. Has he hit a home run? I would say "YES", even though technically, in order to be an official home run, he still must "choose" to run all the bases and touch home plate. The running of the bases is a future included event of something that is REALLY already done. I think Catholics would differ and say "NO", it is not a done deal, because anything could happen to Pujols on his way around the bases, or he might just choose to run into the stands for whatever reason and forfeit his home run. I would say that my belief in being one of the elect is similar to my confidence that Albert is going to dutifully trot around those bases. How do you see it?

More often, much more, though, judgment of Christians is seen as either heaven or hell.

I really don't know about "more" or "less", but it is absolutely undeniable that "judgment" as used in the Bible as referring to either heaven or hell is all over scripture.

7,248 posted on 05/27/2006 3:39:11 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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