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To: Forest Keeper
I don't know who was the first to make a big deal about it, but I don't think it matters because the basis of the Trinity is fully in scripture.

You miss my point... And this is very important.

Without the CHURCH'S interpretation, a final, decisive and dogmatic declaration, we would STILL be arguing over precisely the relationship between God the Father and the Son - and WHO is the Holy Spirit. If you read about the history of the Arian heresy (one where Jesus was not of the essence of the Father), Arius uses SCRIPTURE INTERPRETATIONS to advance his point - that Christ was a creation, not one of the persons of the Godhead (Trinity is not in the Bible).

I'm sure there are plenty of cross-references that when all put together make it clear that the idea of the Trinity is absolutely Biblical.

If you would like, I can advance the Arius point of view, strictly from the Bible. Without the Church's interpretation, you would not have a basis or a standard to come up with "Trinity", now, would you? This idea of WHO is God would be ANOTHER issue that Catholics and Protesters would disagree on. Fortunately, Protestants haven't totally put aside Catholic doctrines...

The Bible talks about the Church of God, which could mean just that or it could refer to God Himself. Even if the former, we don't agree on what God's Church is.

What other Church do you think Paul was refering to? The Second Baptist Church in St. Paul, Minnesota?

"Oh, yes, well God gave all the power to the RCC to interpret scripture."

You certainly feel in a dramatic mood today, huh? The Church was given power to bind and loosen - which includes interpretating Scriptures, exactly what Jewish authorities did, as well. Are you upset that God didn't put you in charge?!

No, I think they do perfectly by themselves, but you're right that correct interpretation is the key. Some Christians have an outside agenda that needs supporting, (thus tipping the scales on interpretation), and some do not.

Naturally, those who cannot live by their own standards, such as Sola Scriptura - by inventing Sola Fide as well as Sola Scriptura - do not have an agenda!!!

Boy do you have a gloomy outlook. :) I can only surmise that you do not believe that sanctification is real (at least for Protestants), or that people actually grow in their faiths during their lives. I suppose with a hierarchy that dictates all of your beliefs to you, there might not be much room to grow.

After so much typing, you still don't know much about Catholicism, do you. Because there is authoritative power available to bind and loosen doesn't mean we don't think or grow. Sanctification is real, especially THROUGH the sacraments of the Church. It is the instrument that God has established to do just that. It is where we receive our daily bread, our forgiveness of sins from God. The correct interpretations of the teachings of the APOSTLES. I have a difficult time wondering why God established a Church that would totally destroy everthing Christ taught in less than 100 years - that is the argument of Protestantism that exceeds all other fantasies...

Regards

7,055 posted on 05/23/2006 9:36:55 AM PDT by jo kus (For love is of God; and everyone that loves is born of God, and knows God. 1Jn 4:7)
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To: jo kus
Without the CHURCH'S interpretation, a final, decisive and dogmatic declaration, we would STILL be arguing over precisely the relationship between God the Father and the Son - and WHO is the Holy Spirit.

That could very well be true. At least it goes to show that I do not think all extra-scriptural Tradition is automatically wrong. :)

If you would like, I can advance the Arius point of view, strictly from the Bible.

If it wouldn't be any trouble, I would be curious to hear it.

The Church was given power to bind and loosen - which includes interpreting Scriptures, exactly what Jewish authorities did, as well. Are you upset that God didn't put you in charge?!

And look at what a stellar job the Jewish authorities did at it! :) I'm not upset that I'm not in charge. I should give thanks to God every day that I am not. :) I only get upset when there's any suggestion that God is not in charge.

Naturally, those who cannot live by their own standards, such as Sola Scriptura - by inventing Sola Fide as well as Sola Scriptura - do not have an agenda!!!

In terms of agreeing with the text of the Bible, I would put Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura up against extra-scriptural Tradition any day of the week. That would be an interesting test, say, to find 100 very bright people who have absolutely zero knowledge of Christianity in any form. Then, have each one of them read the whole Bible. Next, on certain preselected issues, present the two views of Catholicism and of the Reformed Protestants. Finally, ask them to vote on each issue as to which view more closely matches what they read in scripture. I could be wrong, but I don't think it would even be close.

Sanctification is real, especially THROUGH the sacraments of the Church.

I thought for sure you believed that, it just didn't sound like it from your prior post. I even "think" you believe that sanctification is really a part of justification, that sanctification has to do with final salvation.

I have a difficult time wondering why God established a Church that would totally destroy everything Christ taught in less than 100 years - that is the argument of Protestantism that exceeds all other fantasies...

Oh, it's not that bad, we just talked about the Trinity, right? :) My belief IS that the Church strayed, but it's not a fantasy, it's a mystery. Why would God create men just so they could continually turn their back against Him after He only loves them and bestows blessings? I don't know. The Bible is absolutely packed with examples of men being put into power, only for bad things to result. This does not mean "THEREFORE" the Catholic Church is wrong, it just means I don't think they are any more insulated against error than anyone else. (Of course this view is predicated on my belief that God's Church and the RCC are not one and the same.)

7,247 posted on 05/27/2006 2:42:58 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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