Are those whose sins forgiven necessarily the elect? Recall the parable of the wheat and weeds. The field, the Church, is full of "saved" people - those who accepted Baptism. But will they persevere? Thus we come to your presumption again. Remember that Paul wrote to CHRISTIANS that they could be DISINHERITED from their inheritance that was set aside in heaven. Disinherited means you receive NOTHING, not a lesser reward...
I am starting to piece together that what you think happens at Baptism, I think took place 2,000 years ago on a cross
I explained this in my last post, so I will give you an opportunity to respond. Know that Christ died for the sin of ALL the world. This is a Scripture that is inerrant and God's Word. So at what point does a person take on the Work of Christ and apply it to his own personal situation? Or do you say all men are saved - since Christ DIED for all men?
in your system, there could be a perfectly good believer who goes to hell because he hasn't gone through the ceremony. I didn't put that together before, since we've never talked about adult new believers. Heavens forbid! NO! A person can also be "baptized by desire" or "Baptized by blood". Catechumens, those who have not been baptized by who are beginning to come to the faith through our RCIA program are bound for heaven if they died before the actual ritual. If a person would have been baptized if they knew about what it entailed, but are prevented by ignorance or death, than God takes that into account. God NORMALLY works through the sacrament, but is not bound by it - so said St. Augustine vs. the Donatists.
From the standpoint of my own knowledge, I consider myself saved at the point of belief. From God's POV I was saved at the beginning.
Considering we don't share the same definition of "saved", I don't see the point in arguing WHEN it happens, given all the possible scenarios that prevent baptism and its relationship to initial faith. One must not only HEAR the voice of the Shepherd, one must also FOLLOW the voice. Naturally, hearing and not following is a good sign that one is not "saved", by my definition.
Regards
I couldn't find it easily. Could you give me the verse?
So at what point does a person take on the Work of Christ and apply it to his own personal situation? Or do you say all men are saved - since Christ DIED for all men?
A person takes on the Work of Christ from his POV at the point of belief. From God's POV, he always had it. I do not say that all men are saved because Christ did not die for all men, He died for all men of the elect.
A person can also be "baptized by desire" or "Baptized by blood". Catechumens, those who have not been baptized by who are beginning to come to the faith through our RCIA program are bound for heaven if they died before the actual ritual.
OK, that helps, thanks. What is "Baptized by blood"? I mean, I think that our sins are remitted by the blood of Christ, as it says in the Bible (Col. 1:14 and Eph. 1:7) Does the Bible speak of the two-step method as applied by the Church, or of these other methods you mention.