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To: Forest Keeper; Agrarian; jo kus; annalex; blue-duncan; HarleyD; Kolokotronis
I would agree that a contemporary Jew would not share the same faith as a Christian, but I can't assume that their faith is the same as the OT righteous

Oh but I do! The OT righteous did not believe in Three Persons united in one Divine Essence (Nature) in a perfect loving community that we know as God(head). The post-Jamnia Judaism (derivative of Pharisees) doesn't either.

Our faith is defined by Christology. We believe that God's Word became Incarnate and was born of the Virgin, and suffered and died for our sins, and was buried, and resurrected on the third day, and sits to the right side of the Father, and shall return to judge the living and the dead. And in the Holky Ghost (Spirit), who proceeds from the Father, who together with the Father and Son is worshiped (as one God).

The Jews know God through the Law; we know God through Christ. The most important difference is that Judaism does not believe man needs to be saved. We do. Judaism believes that God made us capable of saving ourselves by works, and thus making ourselves, as obedient children, acceptable to God. We believe we are made acceptable to God through His grace. Your Calvinist friends believe some are acceptable because they were pre-destioned from all eternity to be acceptable. That is not Judaism, OT or post-Jamnia!

Messianic anticipation in Judaism did not begin until about a century before Jesus was born. Prior to that, the Jews did not expect a meshiach (messiah). The interpretations of the Tanakh (the Five Books of Moses) of an "anointed" one (a mortal human) who would restore the disintegrated Kingdom of Israel (Jewish kings of at the time of Chrust, as well as the High Priests, were Roman appointees; to wit: Octavian, Ceasar Augustuis, appointed Herod as king; Pontius Pilate, a governor of occupied Israel, appointed Joseph Chaiphas as High Priest; they were Roman puppets). The meshiach (messiah), which does not mean "savior" but the "anointed [by God]," a title bestowed to all kings on the kings of the fallen Kingdom of Israel, never meant anything even closely resembling our definition of Christ, the Greek term also meaning "anointed," which morphed into "Savior," and the "Son of God." So, neither etymologically, not spiritually, does the Hebrew word "meshiach" (messiah) correspond to what the Christians made of it later on.

The OT righteous did not expect the savior because Judaism does not expect one. The OT righteous did not even expect a meshicach because of the historical time frame in which they lived. Messianic mindset began to grown after the Babylonian Captivity and the fact that the Jews were once again not free. If anything, the Jews from about 500 BC onward could have believed only in God's mercy to send them a new Moses, someone who would deliver them from the oppressors, and who would re-establish the Kingdom(of Israel), first and foremost. As time passed, that expectation grew into a mythical belief that the meshiach will establish peace on earth and be the one who will make the God of Abraham known to all so that they may convert to Judaism (i.e. believe in the same God).

6,856 posted on 05/18/2006 12:18:35 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Agrarian; jo kus; annalex; blue-duncan; HarleyD; Kolokotronis
FK: "I would agree that a contemporary Jew would not share the same faith as a Christian, but I can't assume that their faith is the same as the OT righteous."

Oh but I do! The OT righteous did not believe in Three Persons united in one Divine Essence (Nature) in a perfect loving community that we know as God(head). The post-Jamnia Judaism (derivative of Pharisees) doesn't either.

But your entire argument appears to be premised on judging OT Jews by today's standards. Certainly you cannot hold the OT righteous accountable for the "new" teachings of Jesus, for example. For the OT righteous, the circle was not yet complete. Jews of today, OTOH, have no such excuse. So I don't think it is fair to judge an OT Jew based on whether he had a fully developed idea of the Trinity.

The Jews know God through the Law; we know God through Christ. The most important difference is that Judaism does not believe man needs to be saved. We do.

Sure, the OT Jew knew what he knew based on what God gave him to know. If faith is a gift of God, then what is the evidence that God gave any of them "faith" in a form that is substandard? Were the OT righteous given a fully developed plan of salvation through Christ that they all rejected? Which of God's teachings that He gave to the OT righteous did they reject and so are not saved?

Your Calvinist friends believe some are acceptable [to God] because they were pre-destioned from all eternity to be acceptable.

Yes, my Calvinist friends do believe that. And SO DO my Catholic friends! :)

Messianic anticipation in Judaism did not begin until about a century before Jesus was born.

What? Do you mean that every Jew just ignored chapters of scripture such as Isaiah 53 (from about 700 B.C.)? How could any of the OT righteous have BEEN righteous if they didn't believe in their own scripture?

7,069 posted on 05/23/2006 2:35:54 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
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