Replies

Very strange post; it appears as if nothing in it connects to what you are responding to.

Mary could have chosen to commit mortal sin, then not ask forgiveness for it, and would still be saved?

No, of course not. Only the Baptists get to do that, and she was no Baptist.

[John Paul] really means that Christ's redemptive work on the cross only has any value until the next (mortal) sin

No, he doesn't. Christ's redemptive work is sufficient to save every sinner who wishes to be saved.

Mary's suffering helped to pay for my sins?

Yes, and generally the suffering of the saints contributes to the treasure of merits that is stored up for us in heaven. It doesn't mean, of course, that Christ's work was in any way deficient; however, one can, through a heroic act of virtue, contribute to the salvation that Christ has worked for all. Christ remains the sole power that saves, and is alone, with God the Father and the Holy Spirit, object of our worship.

Indulgences: Spreading the wealth
Merit

If Mary was the first to be redeemed, then heaven was empty before Christ? All the faithful of the OT were rotting in purgatory until Christ?

If you have been following the recent Agrarian's posts, see for example, 6756 addressed among others to you, you would not be asking. Please see Limbo and in particular the first part, LIMBUS PATRUM.

FK: "Mary could have chosen to commit mortal sin, then not ask forgiveness for it, and would still be saved?"

No, of course not.

I was responding to your saying: "Jesus' pain was salvific. Likewise when we experience pain we apply it to our salvation in imitation of Christ. Mary, already saved, had nothing to apply in that sense."

Knowing that you see the word "salvation" as only a temporary state, subject to being lost at any moment, I knew that people have to continually "apply" deeds and sacraments in order to achieve full salvation at the end. Since you told me that Mary had no need to "apply" herself toward her salvation, because she already had it, I inferred that you meant "in full". I inferred you were saying that Mary would not have been "required" to fulfill equivalent sacraments or do good deeds because she was already saved on a permanent basis at conception.

FK: "[John Paul] really means that Christ's redemptive work on the cross only has any value until the next (mortal) sin."

No, he doesn't. Christ's redemptive work is sufficient to save every sinner who wishes to be saved.

And you accused me of not addressing the comment posted??? Your last sentence fully avoids what is an important difference between us. You leave out the critical point that for you, any person who "wishes to be saved" might not "wish it" 5 minutes from now, thus nullifying Christ's work for that person. Christ's work becomes immediately insufficient.

I am saying that under your system, Christ's redemptive work is never sufficient on a permanent basis, it is only sufficient on a conditional basis. Under your system, it is like saying that if a football team runs back the opening kickoff for a touchdown, that it has a "sufficient" lead to win the game, with 59:45 remaining to be played. Any football fan will tell you how often he/she has heard someone say such a thing.

My perception is that you do not see Christ's work as sufficient, but rather ONLY necessary. It takes cooperation, and help from man to be truly sufficient. Some believers will sin mortally and not ask for forgiveness. They will be lost, even though they "wished" to be saved. So, the linchpin of salvation has less to do with Christ, since His redemptive work is done and will not change. The linchpin of salvation is really in the hands of man.

FK: "If Mary was the first to be redeemed, then heaven was empty before Christ? All the faithful of the OT were rotting in purgatory until Christ?"

If you have been following the recent Agrarian's posts, see for example, 6756 addressed among others to you, you would not be asking.

That is not correct. I did read Agrarian's post and he was only representing the Orthodox position. I know the Orthodox do not believe in "purgatory" as such, so I was asking you for the Catholic view. You did not respond to Agrarian with a post saying "yes, we Catholics believe that too", so how was I to know? Your link to the article on "Limbo" appears to be similar and does distinguish between purgatory. So, this was my answer and thank you. :) I never knew what limbo was.