Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: Agrarian; annalex
Joseph was a distant relative and was very pious. He was elderly, and thus didn't need the usual (ahem) benefits of marriage in the way a young man might.

Well, he couldn't have been all the way over the hill, because IIRC, in the Protoevangelium it says that Joseph was accused by others of fathering the child, once Mary was discovered to have been pregnant.

Among other things, Mary cared for Joseph in his old age. I wouldn't exactly say that he was not going to get anything of benefit from the marriage. Given that he was a very devout man, it would hardly have been unpleasant for him to spend his final years with a woman who would care for him and pray all the time.

Given this premise, I'd say it sounds logical. But what gets me is: why get married? I can't believe it would send shock waves through the community if "young virgin niece" wants to go live with and take care of "doddering old uncle". That kind of thing must have happened all the time. Joseph even complained that he would be seen as a laughing stock at taking Mary as his wife. Then, the priest immediately used extortion to get Joseph to agree. I'm still chuckling about that one. :)

It is not really accurate to say that the Orthodox Church gets our traditions from the Protoevangelium. The Protoevangelion is merely the oldest known written account of a common pre-existing oral tradition.

Well yes, I didn't mean to imply exclusively. :) I was replying to Alex, and noticed that everything he pointed out was found in this document, so I assumed that he was referring to it.

Given Jewish laws of ritual cleanliness, once a temple virgin had reached a certain age (and BTW, Jewish tradition talks about temple work being done by young virgins, also) where she was going to be "unclean" on a monthly basis, she could no longer live in the Temple.

I remember the Protoevangelium noting this too. It just struck me as odd, (and I don't question the fact of the tradition), that since virginity was held up as such a prized state, that once young girls became "eligible", they were promptly kicked out of the safest place on earth to maintain that state! :) Go figure.

6,710 posted on 05/16/2006 2:25:43 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6353 | View Replies ]


To: Forest Keeper

"Well, he couldn't have been all the way over the hill, because IIRC, in the Protoevangelium it says that Joseph was accused by others of fathering the child, once Mary was discovered to have been pregnant."

Men have fathered children when they are very elderly. It just doesn't happen very often. The criticism leveled at Joseph was, as I recall, a "tut tut" for not preserving Mary's virginity as had been assumed would be the case. The idea that old men usually can do without it is still true today, as is the reality that many continue on until they are very old. There's nothing here of particular interest.

"Given this premise, I'd say it sounds logical. But what gets me is: why get married? I can't believe it would send shock waves through the community if "young virgin niece" wants to go live with and take care of "doddering old uncle". That kind of thing must have happened all the time. Joseph even complained that he would be seen as a laughing stock at taking Mary as his wife. Then, the priest immediately used extortion to get Joseph to agree. I'm still chuckling about that one. :)"

First of all, do not assume that every part of the Protoevangelion is true. It is not Scripture, nor is this tradition. In the case of traditions like this, we feel very confident in the basic account, but we don't read into small details of the tradition with the confidence that we can with Scripture. I do not know a lot about Near Eastern culture. I just understand that it was expected for women to marry, and keep in mind that one could marry a distant relative, which Joseph was. To cohabit with someone you could marry probably would have been a scandal. It also would give her certain legal protections and status under Jewish law that would be absent if she were in the odd state of "never married."

"I remember the Protoevangelium noting this too. It just struck me as odd, (and I don't question the fact of the tradition), that since virginity was held up as such a prized state, that once young girls became "eligible", they were promptly kicked out of the safest place on earth to maintain that state! :) Go figure."

You don't know your Old Testament very well if you aren't familiar with the strictness with which the Jewish tradition considered "the cycle" to be a time when a woman was ritually unclean.

BTW, this is still adhered to in many parts of the Orthodox world. Women don't enter the church during that time of the month and certainly don't commune. It is partly a residual of Hebrew tradition, and partly a kindness to the women, who usually aren't feeling all that great.





6,723 posted on 05/16/2006 6:19:07 AM PDT by Agrarian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6710 | View Replies ]

To: Forest Keeper; Agrarian; annalex
Joseph even complained that he would be seen as a laughing stock at taking Mary as his wife. Then, the priest immediately used extortion to get Joseph to agree. I'm still chuckling about that one. :)

Interesting point; the priest telling Joseph that if he doesn't take the pregant Mary as his wife, the ground will swallow him up like Koran. I've always pictured Joseph as being a "righteous man" and wanted to do what was right.

Joseph knew the law yet he was torn between doing the "right" thing in sending Mary away and doing the "lawful" thing which would be to report her which would possibly result in her stoning. It appears that Joseph didn't even contemplate doing the "best" thing in marrying her.* The scriptures state Joseph made the decision to send her away. It was only after Joseph made this decision that an angel of God interceded and told Joseph not to worry about taking Mary as his wife.

I'm not sure where all these threats and everything else pops up. It says that Joseph was obedient to the angel's instructions.

*I'll footnote this since it seems to me that under Jewish law, once you were engaged you were consider married-just not consummated until the wedding night. If a person wanted to break the vowels before the consummation process, it required a certificate of divorce. Thus Joseph had to "put her away quietly". Joseph couldn't just call off the engagement. I don't have my reference books but if anyone can shed light on this I would appreciate any corrections or updates.

6,725 posted on 05/16/2006 6:37:50 AM PDT by HarleyD ("Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures" Luk 24:45)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6710 | View Replies ]

To: Forest Keeper; Agrarian
why get married?

Your first question was, what was in it for both parties, and I answered: Mary got a master of the house and Joseph got a homemaker. Your next question is, why not just cohabit, as relatives sometimes do. Well, since Joseph fathering a child with Mary was not exactly out of the realm of the possible, a sexual union between them would have been at least rumored, and therefore improper. Where did you get the idea that Mary was Joseph's niece? Surely whatever relation they had, if any, did not preclude marirage, and by the same token would have precluded cohabitation without marriage.

everything [Annalex] pointed out was found in this document

Simply because the document is rather comprehensive in presenting one version of events, that is consistent with the scripture, and specifically consistent with Luke 1:34. But is is a document of uncertain provenance, not canonical, and so is but a historical evidence dating in 2 century. The official teaching is expressed by the late Pope in the link I gave you in 6678, and he merely states that it is a mystery why Mary was betrothed while committed to celibacy.

6,740 posted on 05/16/2006 11:11:35 AM PDT by annalex
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6710 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson