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To: annalex; kosta50; Full Court; jo kus
FK: "So, what is the difference between two babies who die, with one having been baptized and the other not?"

In addition to Kosta's spot-on remark, there is a simple scriptural reason: "unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5). Baptism is ordinarily necessary because Christ said so.

So the Holy Spirit of God is BLOCKED until there is a sprinkling? Does that make sense? This directly contradicts scripture, so I would like to ask how you would square this requirement against Eph. 2:8-9? Your answer cannot be that Baptism is a grace, because there is no element of faith in an infant Baptism, so that still contradicts Ephesians. In addition, under the Catholic view, it would not be "just" to forever penalize a baby if his family did not get him baptized before it was too late.

6,624 posted on 05/14/2006 9:02:22 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50
Your answer cannot be that Baptism is a grace, because there is no element of faith in an infant Baptism, so that still contradicts Ephesians.

That makes absolutely no sense. What better way of identifying baptism as grace, as a free gift, than Baptism given to an infant - who can do absolutely nothing to deserve or earn it, unlike the adult who must first "achieve" a certain amount of faith...?

Faith is a gift. Freely given.

In addition, under the Catholic view, it would not be "just" to forever penalize a baby if his family did not get him baptized before it was too late.

It is not Catholic teaching that babies are condemned to hell for not being baptized. St. Augustine's theory was never accepted as Catholic doctrine. We do not believe such are reprobate - since one must actively sin to "earn" hell.

Regards

6,633 posted on 05/15/2006 5:11:54 AM PDT by jo kus (For love is of God; and everyone that loves is born of God, and knows God. 1Jn 4:7)
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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50; jo kus
Holy Spirit of God is BLOCKED until there is a sprinkling?

Of course not. But we have John 3:5 obligating us to baptize everyone. Christ can still save an unbaptized but that would be done extraordinarily. We have to do our part, and leave Christ's part to Christ.

This directly contradicts scripture, so I would like to ask how you would square this requirement against Eph. 2:8-9?

Where is the contradiction? In infant baptism, the faith of the sponsor (the parents, typically) supplies the faith, ad the sacrament of the water and the prayers supplies the grace.

under the Catholic view, it would not be "just" to forever penalize a baby if his family did not get him baptized before it was too late.

Yes, the parents who delay the baptism in effect are telling Christ to please save the baby even though they did not get around to baptize him, in the event of his death. It is presumptious and wrong. Of course we believe in the mercy and justice of Christ and hope that the baby would still be saved extraordinarily; however the scripture does not say so explicitly, and it does compel us to baptise explicitly in John 3:5, and others.

This is not unlike any sacrament. While these things are mystical, they are not magical amulets; it is always Christ Who works through the sacrament, and of course He can also work outside of the sacrament. We lead sacramental lives not because there is something magical in the water, bread, wine, and the oil, but because Christ asked us to do these things in His name.

6,663 posted on 05/15/2006 11:33:56 AM PDT by annalex
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