Replies

"The problem isn't in treating Mary with respect and I think you know that."

I'm not saying that Protestantism's lack of respect for her is a problem. It is your faith, your business. The point that I was making is that many Protestant beliefs and sensibilities arise out of reaction to Catholic excesses. In general Orthodoxy would view much Catholic popular piety regarding the Virgin to be excessive, and we modify or reject a number of points of their beliefs about her.

But regarding my point, think of Protestant Sunday school songs: there are ones about Zaccheus, Jonah, Daniel that I can think of right off hand. Where are the songs children are taught to sing about the Mother of the Lord? You may think that this is a silly example, but if one were to ask a group of Sunday school kids to list the 5 most important people in the Bible other than Christ, how many do you think would even think to list the Mother of the Lord?

You are being disingenuous if you really hope to claim that Protestantism in general has not gone out of its way to diminish the role and importance and respect for her, precisely out of reaction against Catholicism. I remember Billy Graham once speaking perceptively on this issue -- he didn't have an alternative, but he did volunteer that he perceived that the phenomenon is real.

I am an equal-opportunity critic in this regard. I can't speak about Catholicism, but some Orthodox cut off their nose to spite their face when it comes to things that "look Protestant." An example that I have used before is that the Orthodox tradition, both monastic and laity, has been to have extensive personal Scripture reading at the heart of one's prayer life. Numerous spiritual writers through the centuries have emphasized the need for this daily Scriptural reading (especially from the Gospels), even if one does nothing else. The Slavic Gospel and Epistles have personal reading markings that were (and still are) followed by monks and pious laymen -- by following them, one reads a Gospel every week (i.e. goes through all 4, 13 times a year), and the rest of the NT (except for Revelation) about 7 times a year. The Psalter is commonly read through once every 3 weeks or so.

On the American scene, in reaction to Sola Scriptura and Protestant fundamentalism, many Orthodox forget that this kind of immersion in the Scriptures is one of the things at the heart of the Orthodox spiritual life. They react to this and even denigrate the importance of the Scriptures. Some react to fundamentalist literal views of Scripture by buying into liberal secular Biblical "scholarship," placing themselves clearly outside the Orthodox tradition in this regard. I think you get the picture.

"The problem is that we won't cross a line into worship of her."

Neither will we. The difference between veneration and worship is not just a technicality to an Orthodox Christian. I remember having a evangelical friend who liked a lot of what he read about Orthodoxy, but who really had a problem with icons and said that there was no way he could ever get past that. One day, we happened to meet in a city on a Sunday and he came to the local Orthodox cathedral with me. This was a very traditional Russian parish, and the people would come in, venerate and greet the icons, and then before going to stand in their place, bow to the right and the left, facing the people already there. He saw how the people at this parish greeted each other with a 3-fold holy kiss, and how we kissed the hand of the priest (and sometimes of holy elderly laymen) out of respect. This is a venerating and greeting of the living icons of Christ that are present -- i.e. the faithful.

I was surprised when after the service, he told me that by seeing it in that place, he understood the role of icons among the Orthodox for the first time, and that he had no problem with it at all. He said that it was absolutely clear to him that we were not worshiping the saints or each other, let alone wood and paint. He said that he saw "the communion of the saints" lived out in a way he had never imagined.

Now, this is a evangelical friend who never became Orthodox even though he remains, nearly 20 years later, friendly to Orthodoxy. There is no triumphalist ending to this story. It is just the story of someone who "came and saw," and as a result understood that his preconceived notions about us "worshiping saints and icons" couldn't have been more wrong. I'm not sure that all would have that experience on visiting an Orthodox parish -- it would depend on the spirit of the parish and the openness of the individual -- but I suspect that most Protestants who actually were exposed to Orthodox worship in a living fashion would at the very least be more tempered and circumspect in their comments about what we do and do not believe.

"We all know who the Queen of Heaven is that Jeremiah preached against, and to even give her this title fills us with....something, I'm not sure what, dread maybe."

I certainly can understand this. I think that dread is a good word, since it fits the reactions.

"In contrast, try to find the name of David's mother in the bible-- good luck, she isn't even mentioned. Other than how David came to know Solomon's mother, she too gets no great mention. Poor Leah, she had to trick Jacob into loving her, as he loved Rachel more. The precedent is set for Mary to fulfill her great mission and to live as just another Jewish woman."

You are right that the role of women in traditional Semitic cultures was and is a very lowly one. Christianity did change that dramatically. Even to this day, Orthodox men living in areas where there are significant numbers of Muslims and are ridiculed by their Muslim neighbors because the Christian men are "ruled by their wives," and that they don't put their women in their place as they should.

" If it was not so, Jesus would have made sure to say so. We believe what Jesus said in the bible, and that is our only fault."

We of course believe that Jesus did say so, but we also believe that our traditions about the Theotokos are "inner" traditions, that are not a part of the preaching of the Word of God. They deepen our understanding of the great mystery of the Incarnation and of our salvation, but they are not something we put out front in the place of importance.

We of course believe what the Scriptures say as well. Believing them is not a fault at all, as far as I am concerned. We do understand them quite differently in many cases.

For instance, there is the time when the woman cries out that the woman who gave him birth and suckled him is blessed. Christ replies, "Yea, rather blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." In this, we don't see a put-down of the Theotokos at all. We rather see Christ telling the woman that what makes his mother blessed is that she heard the word of God, and kept it -- and beyond that, he was letting the woman and the crowd know that *this* was an aspect of his mother that they could and should imitate.

At the wedding at Cana, Christ says, in the KJV "what have I to do with thee?" This has been described by some Protestants as another example of Christ "putting Mary in her place." This is a mistranslated passage. The literal translation basically says, "what has this to do with thee and me?" Very different, isn't it?

Anyway, I harbor no delusions of convincing anyone of Orthodox teachings regarding the Theotokos. I wouldn't even want to try, since it is not where I would start in conveying the Orthodox faith. My motivation in addressing these things is that what tends to happen on threads like this is that straw-men or caricatures get set up, and of course those are pretty easy to knock about. I simply want to convey, as best I can, the flavor and spirit (as well as the details) of Orthodox teachings -- so you can at least be knocking the real thing about.

The Slavic Gospel and Epistles have personal reading markings that were (and still are) followed by monks and pious laymen -- by following them, one reads a Gospel every week (i.e. goes through all 4, 13 times a year), and the rest of the NT (except for Revelation) about 7 times a year. The Psalter is commonly read through once every 3 weeks or so

I can tell you that those are few and far inbetween. I come from an Orthodox Slavic culture and rather than read Gospels and the NT the pious attend "spiritual sessions" with their "spiritual fathers." They are an open question and answer forum. I can honestly say that reading the Scriptures is an alien habit to indigenous Orthodox cultures and that the majority of housolds probably don't even have the "Holy Script" (Bible) or, if they do, it is prominently displayed among cherished books on the book shelf, possibly next to a small icon, but never removed.

The majority of peasantry (farmers in American jargon) wouldn't dare read the Evangelium (Gospels), for fear of not interpreting correctly, or God forbid falling into some kind of heresy, or even be bored, and most probably think of the NT as the Bible. Most of the knowledge of the faith is obtained through the litugry especially during great feasts and fasts, the icons, and spiritual sessions.

Thanks for the reply Ag. It was illuminating, especially in regards to the visitor and the icons. Now on the face of it, bowing to an icon or genuflecting at a statue of say, Peter, or Mary, would be to me, breaking the First Commandment. Your church however, seems to have your rite as a cultural or social activity, not a religious one. We too flock around and make much over our esteemed elders and I would say we do this as it feels good, lol, it's just a socializing .

You're right, we don't have any songs to Mary, but it never struck me as unusual. Later I thought "Mary had a little lamb" was surely about her and Jesus though.

Well if it helps, the orthodox among us look with suspicion on some other Protestant groups just as much as we do with Catholics.

You are being disingenuous if you really hope to claim that Protestantism in general has not gone out of its way to diminish the role and importance and respect for her, precisely out of reaction against Catholicism.

While I not sure I would agree with the view of your evangelical friend (I've been to Orthodox Churches) I believe you make some very valid points about us Protestants and Mary. I too feel that we often diminsh her role.

I will say there aren't very many scriptures that talks about Mary so creating a sermon on Mary is extremely difficult without getting into speculation. Our pastor did a sermon on Mary and it was based mostly upon conjecture. It most likely is far easier for the Orthodox and Catholics to talk about Mary because they refer to tradition.

There is far more information about the lives of Ruth or Esther (even Rahab) then about Mary. Protestants probably don't refer to her as much simply because we focus on Sola Scriptura and there isn't very much written about her in scripture.