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To: Forest Keeper; annalex; Kolokotronis; Agrarian; qua
My point (really to Kosta) is that in this whole "continuity" discussion that's been going on concerning OT and NT, what does it say if there are OT righteous and NT Apostles standing side by side in an icon like this?

Well, Kolokotronis already clarified that the Apostles were not there, which actually shows that the OT righteous are not given the same grace as Christ's Apostles. I think it is telling that the OT righteous, including John the Baptist, are seen in the Hades but the Apostles are not.

Regarding, the OT-NT issue, I am not disputing the "continuity" because it would mean that am denying that Christianity was born out of the OT Judaism, which would be ridiculous. I am simply saying that Christianity became something other than Judaism. As to which is the "true" faith, Apostolic Christianity or Judaism, we shall all know one day when we leave this life. There can only be one rightfull heir to the true faith: one or none, but not both.

I am simply saying that although Christianity draws its roots from Judaism, it is not recognizable as Judaism, just as the United States has recognizable English and European foundations, but is neither English nor European. They are not one and the same. They both draw their roots in the OT revelation, which, as Christians we must confess is incomplete, unfulfilled but prophetic, and messianic.

We cannot simply say that God bestowed His grace on the Jews and the OT righteous and that they would for sure recognize Christ if they had seen Him, as Elijah and Moses recognized Him on Mount Tabor; by then, they both had "inside information." :)

I think it would be a correct Orthodox statement that God gives His grace to all, believers and non-believers alike. So, the OT righteous were no exception in that regard, because Christ is the true Light, who by his grace enlighted every man that come into the world, but the world "knew him not." (Cf John 1:9-10).

Thus, Scripture tells us that everyone who was ever born received God's grace as part of His Redemptive Economy, making it possible for anyone to become righteous by cleaving to God, as the OT righteous did. That by and of itself does not mean they would recognize Christ. For that, one needs illumination, and that is an altoghether different subject...right Kolo? :)

5,941 posted on 05/08/2006 4:28:24 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; annalex; Kolokotronis; Agrarian; qua
Well, Kolokotronis already clarified that the Apostles were not there [in the icon], which actually shows that the OT righteous are not given the same grace as Christ's Apostles.

Yes, he did, that was my mistake. I really don't know the level of significance that these icons have for you all, but this one icon is enough to prove that the Apostles had more grace than the OT righteous? I suppose "grace" could be a relative term here, but when I think of Moses, John, and Paul, I think of them all as those who wrote inerrant scripture, they all performed miracles, and all preached God's word, so they all must have been pretty loaded with grace. :)

Another point concerns John the Baptist as one of the OT righteous. I don't know why that is, (unless it is because he is Elijah), but since it helps me now, I'll go with it! :) Anyway, Jesus said, in effect, that (outside of Himself) John the Baptist was the finest man who ever lived. That would put him ahead of the Apostles and appear to indicate more grace.

We cannot simply say that God bestowed His grace on the Jews and the OT righteous and that they would for sure recognize Christ if they had seen Him, as Elijah and Moses recognized Him on Mount Tabor; by then, they both had "inside information." :)

Yeah, I have read the postings on whether the OT righteous would have recognized Jesus as Messiah. (John the Baptist certainly did.) I suppose that my take would be that no one ever recognizes Christ unless God reveals Christ to him. So, it wouldn't matter how pious or sinful anyone was, or what their doctrines were, when they lived, or anything else, those whom God chooses will recognize Christ. I have to believe that the OT righteous would have been in that group.

6,367 posted on 05/12/2006 2:19:04 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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