Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: jo kus; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; qua; blue-duncan
FK: "I don't think of us as puppets because none of us experiences it like that. After regeneration, we do have new abilities. One is the ability to please God. Another is the ability to be sanctified."

Well, this is not classic Protestantism, to my knowledge. It sounds Wesleyian. Luther and Calvin claimed that man continued to be "sin", even after regeneration, since he had no ability to participate in salvation, even after regeneration. God did everything. No free will. No responsibility. No perseverance. No obedience expected. What you say makes more sense than Luther and Calvin claims that man is spiritually dead and must take on some sort of legal, external justification to be saved.

Well, I'll have to ask for some help then, because if you had asked me I would have said that this is EXACTLY classical Protestantism. :) At regeneration, I do believe that the old (sinful nature) is gone and the new (God-pleasing nature) has come. However, a remnant of the sinful nature remains, hence we still sin. I don't understand the concept of us actually "being" sin, although I would say that we are born dead "in" sin (i.e. much worse off than only wounded).

I do think that man is responsible for his sin, that the elect do persevere, and that obedience is expected of men. I just give God all the credit when this (the good) happens. Certainly, whenever I face a moral dilemma I perceive that I have a choice. When I choose poorly, then that is my responsibility and I should seek forgiveness. When I choose correctly, then I give thanks to God for His working through me.

5,924 posted on 05/08/2006 3:34:55 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5655 | View Replies ]


To: Forest Keeper; HarleyD; qua
Sounds good to me.

We never change our "substance" which is a Greek fallacy which the RCs seem to emulate. We are born human and we die human. But...

Christ takes on our sins and pay for them, so we are actually judged "innocent" by the substitution of His virtue for our lack of it, while we remain always the creature whom God created.

This is one of the areas where I think Reformed theology is most profound. There is nothing in man which is righteous or God-pleasing. We are blood and bones and instinct.

But we are graciously saved from God's wrath by the perfection of His Son whom God mercifully has given to us and placed inside our hearts. All that is good and God-pleasing is from Him, by Him, through Him, for His glory alone.

Other faiths spend a great deal of time and effort trying to detail the righteousness of men.

It's a losing attempt, as old as man himself.

Maybe I'd add that we can thank God for both the "good" and the "bad." That's one of the perks that comes with being a child of God. We know whatever befalls us, it is meant for our good and His glory, either by way of instruction or correction.

We know that God gathers all our tears into His bottle and that...

"They that sow in tears shall reap in joy." -- Psalm 126:5

5,929 posted on 05/08/2006 3:57:31 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5924 | View Replies ]

To: Forest Keeper; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan
Well, I'll have to ask for some help then, because if you had asked me I would have said that this is EXACTLY classical Protestantism. :) At regeneration, I do believe that the old (sinful nature) is gone and the new (God-pleasing nature) has come. However, a remnant of the sinful nature remains, hence we still sin.

That is not my understanding of Luther or Calvin's concept of man's situation, even after regeneration. They both claimed that man was a pile of crap covered with snow (the righteousness of Christ), since man was so corrupt and unable to cooperate whatsoever. Thus, the need for external justification (rather than imputed - which some Protestants do actually agree with us Catholics, such as the Methodists, although it is slightly different). Classic Calvinist/Lutheran anthropology leaves man in such a state that we absolutely can do nothing and that Luther even said we are sin AND graced simultaneously - sin on the inside and graced legally in status. Your current view sounds more Catholic or Wesleyian

I do think that man is responsible for his sin, that the elect do persevere, and that obedience is expected of men.

If so, you disagree with the classic Reformers - congratulations! Naturally, I would be interested to hear your theories on how man is responsible if he cannot cooperate? And further, who is being called to persevere? Man or God? Finally, if obedience is expected, wouldn't we presume that man has the ability to obey?

I just give God all the credit when this (the good) happens.

Sure, He gets the credit for being the First Cause. But He also expects us to cooperate - as a conglomeration of man and Christ abiding within us, we CAN take credit, or merit heaven - since God has promised it to those who obey Him.

When I choose correctly, then I give thanks to God for His working through me.

That is a good thing - I can't argue with that!

Regards

5,960 posted on 05/08/2006 5:36:32 PM PDT by jo kus (I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart...Psalm 119:32)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5924 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson