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To: jo kus; Forest Keeper
We believe that Calvinists misunderstand St. Augustine's writings, taking them out of context.... But reading St. Augustine outside of polemic language, one finds he was NOT a "proto-Protestant". You would be quite surprised to see how Roman Catholic he really was...

Oh really? I would submit the more fundamental beliefs of Augustine establishes the basic foundations for the Reformation (e.g. views on man's free will, election, predestination, etc.). His other views such as infant baptism, the Eucharist, Mary, etc are secondary views.

Then we can no longer call God "fair" if there is no possibility of a man pleasing God when God actively chooses to withhold from that man the ability to please God.

Pelagius had a problem with this prayer as well.
5,893 posted on 05/08/2006 10:40:07 AM PDT by HarleyD ("Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures" Luk 24:45)
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To: HarleyD; jo kus; Forest Keeper; qua; Full Court; 1000 silverlings; blue-duncan
In order to understand Augustine, every Roman Catholic should read his masterwork...

TREATISE ON PREDESTINATION

"Let us, then, understand the calling whereby they become elected -- not those who are elected because they have believed, but who are elected that they may believe...His mercy preceded them according to grace, not according to debt. God elected believers; but He chose them that they might be so, not because they were already so..." -- ST. AUGUSTINE, "Treatise on Predestination" Chapter 34.

5,900 posted on 05/08/2006 11:52:38 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: HarleyD; Forest Keeper
I would submit the more fundamental beliefs of Augustine establishes the basic foundations for the Reformation (e.g. views on man's free will, election, predestination, etc.). His other views such as infant baptism, the Eucharist, Mary, etc are secondary views.

That's not surprising that you consider your own personal views the center of the world. We all do, in a manner of speaking. But just because you consider man's free will and predestination as fundamental doesn't mean that St. Augustine did in his writings... He wrote a lot about them because the Pelagians were persistent. He also wrote a lot to the Donatists and the Manichaeans about entirely different subjects.

"Command what you will, and give what you command"-Augustine

I don't have a problem with that prayer. I thought we already established that Catholics believe that God gives us every good gift. You would better understand the context of our (FK) discussions regarding "fairness" if you read our posts. St. Augustine himself would never agree that God commands what man cannot do! I have already quoted you a number of times he mentions this. God does NOT command men to do things that man cannot do.

Regards

5,907 posted on 05/08/2006 12:50:49 PM PDT by jo kus (I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart...Psalm 119:32)
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