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To: Forest Keeper
Do you have any information that Calvin shied away from or didn't like the Gospels? I've never heard of that.

Well, for starters, how about the whole idea of justification by faith that was taught by Calvin and Luther - the concept of extrinsic justification.

Doesn't Christ say that WE MUST BECOME RIGHTEOUS - EXCEEDING THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE PHARISEES? This, of course, goes totally against the invention of Luther and Calvin that man can do nothing. Christ says WE must become righteous, Protestants say we can't. At all.

Regards

5,845 posted on 05/07/2006 4:43:19 PM PDT by jo kus (I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart...Psalm 119:32)
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To: jo kus; Forest Keeper
Doesn't Christ say that WE MUST BECOME RIGHTEOUS - EXCEEDING THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE PHARISEES? This, of course, goes totally against the invention of Luther and Calvin that man can do nothing. Christ says WE must become righteous, Protestants say we can't. At all

That is an excellent point, jo! Unfortunately, the Protestant answer to this is already known: we can exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees only if God grants it to us.

Back to square one!

5,850 posted on 05/07/2006 5:23:19 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: jo kus; kosta50
FK: "Do you have any information that Calvin shied away from or didn't like the Gospels? I've never heard of that."

Well, for starters, how about the whole idea of justification by faith that was taught by Calvin and Luther - the concept of extrinsic justification.

I've never heard of extrinsic justification as a defined term, so I obviously can't comment on how or whether it was taught by Luther or Calvin. Here is something I found about a CATHOLIC scholar, Louis Bouyer, whom I don't know, but he mentioned the term. It is in an article called Is Luther's Doctrine of Justification Compatible with Orthodox Catholic Theology? . :

Bouyer admits in passing that Luther's notion of "extrinsic justification" is incompatible with Catholic dogma. Bouyer defines extrinsic justification (correctly) as being something which takes place "exterior to the believer" with the result that the Christian—although just in God's sight—remains a sinner in himself. Bouyer points out that according to this idea, the believer must always feel that his own righteousness is insufficient to please God or insure salvation. His right standing with God is entirely independent of any "interior change." Bouyer asserts, however, that this was not part of the "main" Protestant position or one of Luther's "basic" propositions. Rather, it was an overreaction on Luther's part as he advanced in his conflict with Rome. Furthermore, says Bouyer, Luther did not even teach the doctrine of extrinsic justification consistently himself but contradicted it on many occasions. (emphasis added)

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Doesn't Christ say that WE MUST BECOME RIGHTEOUS - EXCEEDING THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE PHARISEES? This, of course, goes totally against the invention of Luther and Calvin that man can do nothing.

Yes Christ says that, and no, as far as I know that does not go against the teachings of Luther and Calvin. In fact, the only way for believers to exceed the "righteousness" of the Pharisees was that if what Luther and Calvin taught was true, Imputed Righteousness. Man does nothing of his own to receive imputed righteousness. Wouldn't you agree that the righteousness of Christ EXCEEDS the righteousness of the Pharisees? I sure think so. Therefore, there is no contradiction to the scripture.

6,222 posted on 05/11/2006 2:34:43 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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