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To: kosta50; jo kus; annalex; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; qua; AlbionGirl; blue-duncan
In Baptism the human person dies to his sinful life and rises again to new spiritual life." (Orthodox Catechism)

How can a baby die to his sinful life if he hasn't committed any sins yet? How can this happen without any free will? I think it's been said that the free will is supplied by proxy through the parents, but that doesn't really make logical sense, does it? "I will exercise your free will FOR YOU"? The poor baby has no idea what is happening to him. The baby doesn't want to be baptized, he wants his binky! :) His will is being totally overrun here.

5,593 posted on 05/04/2006 10:11:09 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50; annalex; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; blue-duncan
How can a baby die to his sinful life if he hasn't committed any sins yet? How can this happen without any free will?

Original sin is not a personal sin, so in this regard, a baby has no "sin". But if we define "sin" as something without God, then we can rightfully call original sin as such because we are born without sanctifying grace, God's presence in our souls. As such, this state, sans God, is called "original sin". It is a lack of God, not a personal sin.

Regards

5,599 posted on 05/04/2006 10:33:34 AM PDT by jo kus (I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart...Psalm 119:32)
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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus; annalex; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; qua; AlbionGirl; blue-duncan
[re Orthodox statement that in baptism one dies to his sinful life...] How can a baby die to his sinful life if he hasn't committed any sins yet?

I believe annalex and jo kus beat me to this. It refers to the future. If a person continues to live in faith, receiving sacraments, being spiritually alive, he will have died to his sinful tendencies imparted to him by his fallen nature. Baptism is the initiation into the life of the Church; it is the entry into Christian life.

How can this happen without any free will? I think it's been said that the free will is supplied by proxy through the parents, but that doesn't really make logical sense, does it? "I will exercise your free will FOR YOU"? The poor baby has no idea what is happening to him. The baby doesn't want to be baptized, he wants his binky! :) His will is being totally overrun here

The godparents are the spiritual parents of the child who guide him or her in the life of the Church until that child can do it on his or her own. This is no different than parents being the caretakers of their children and preparing them, sometimes against their will, to become responsible and virtuous human beings.

In the process of raising our children, we are often in a position to overrun their wills and impose ours. We do it knowing that it is for their good, and we know that they will do the same to their children, and for the same reason.

5,658 posted on 05/04/2006 8:24:35 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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