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To: Forest Keeper; 1000 silverlings; Agrarian; Kolokotronis; annalex; jo kus
I disagree with your interpretation of Sheol, and the entire idea that anyone goes down to hades, and later needs rescuing. That is an invention of the Church, and some very agenda-filled interpretation. I don't even think you and the Catholics agree on the whole "after-life but before judgment" thing. I believe the righteous Jew of the OT was saved in the normal, for me, way. No need for any purgatory or hades

Okay, good point. There is no biblical evidence fo any of what the Orthodox call and depict in icons as the Harrowing of Hell, the resurrection of the Dead, the Anastasis. The source is the Apostle's Creed (of uncertain date, legendary; used by western Christians, including Western Orthodox, Latin-Catholics, Presbyterians, Methodists, and many Baptists but not Southern Baptists).

The Creed or Symbol is believed to have been composed to guard against and resist Gnosticism, and the legend has it that the each of the Apostles contributed to it. This Creed referrs to Hell ("He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again...") not Hades.

There is also a 2nd century apoctyphal Gospel of Nicodemus (this is before the NT was compiled). It describes Christ entering the Hades but the broken gates are those of Hell, and the keys of the door are falling into the abyss of Hell, and raising Adam and Eve (depcited in the Orthodox icon known as Anastatsis or "Raising").

The weak NT evidence of any of this can be found in 1 Peter (one of those scrolls that was not easily accepted as inspired), where it says that Jesus "went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah." [3:19-20] , and again in 1 Peter 4:6 in a similar fashion.

The famous "Harrowing of Hell" is credited to +John Chrysostom (5th century AD) who suggested it was a "necessary paradox". The OT righteous were in what was known as the Limbo patrum which no longer exists after Christ rescued them. Earlier, Tertullian and Origen taught the Harrowing of Hell (their later heresies notwithstanding) and St. Ambrose (4th century).

Some cite Eph 4:8-10, but it takes a "stretch" to see the same thing described by Necodemus or the Apostle's Creed. St. Thomas Aquinas wrote "when Christ descended into hell, by the power of his Passion he delivered the saints from this penalty whereby they were excluded from the life of glory." So, the "paradox" of the OT righteous being enslaved by death and in need of salvation.

I have asked why were the OT righteous captives of Hell? The answer is because even the righteous die, even they are enslaved by death, our last enemy, and only Christ can unchasckle us from the bonds of death. They couldn't do it on thier own or on their own merit. Even Theotokos did not resurrect on her own, but was resurrected according to our beliefs. Thus, being righteous does not automatically free us from the shackles of death; therefore no one goes to heaven until resurrected.

Thus, other than the NT reference that Chris proclaimed the Gospel to those who died before His coming, the rest of the Church belief in His entering Hades/Hell (actually "underworld") to resurrect or take the righteous appears to be non-scriptural as FK asserts, i.e. a Church invention. Interestingly John Calvin very much believed that Christ's descent into Hell was a necessary "paradox" if you will of our atonement (although there is no strong scriptural support for this).

Interestingly, we do not assert any of that in the Nicene Creed (we simply say that He suffered, died and was buried, and on the third day rose again); the Nicene Creed carefully avoids making such pronouncmeents.

So, we have a statement here by FK who claims to be a Calvinist but by his Southern Baptist tradition does not surbscribe to Creeds, who says quite convincingly that the Church simply invetnted the whole idea that Christ went to Hades to rescue the OT righteous from the bonds of the grave.

Any thoughts? Did the Church make this inventiontion and is it yet another invention that is nonbiblical and subject to doubt?

5,371 posted on 05/01/2006 9:31:29 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper; 1000 silverlings; Kolokotronis; annalex; jo kus

"Any thoughts? Did the Church make this inventiontion and is it yet another invention that is nonbiblical and subject to doubt?"

I think that you have already done a good job of mentioning a couple of Scriptural passages that the Church sees alluding to what is portrayed in our icon of Holy Saturday (commonly referred to as the icon of the Resurrection.)

Hades would not have been referred to in the original Apostles Creed, since it was a purely Western creed written in Latin, and was, as far as I know, never in liturgical use in the East in Greek.

Regardless, when the Apostles' Creed appears in Greek, "ad inferna" is translated as "eis ta katotata." This choice of words in Greek seems to be directly drawn from Ephesians 4:9 "eis ta katotera meri tis gis" (into the lower parts of the earth.) This is the only appearance in the New Testment of this particular construction.

But for someone familiar with the LXX, as St. Paul was, the language was familiar:

Psalm 62:9 -- "eis ta katotata tis gis" (into the nethermost/lowest parts of the earth)

Psalm 85:13 -- "ex athou katotatou" (from the nethermost/lowest Hades) [Hades here being a translation of the Hebrew word Sheol]

Psalm 138:15 -- "en tis katotato tis gis" (in the nethermost/lowest parts of the earth) [the LXX reading of this verse, incidentally has a quite different meaning from what translations from the Hebrew do in this verse, with the LXX seeming to refer to some sort of Hades/Sheol]

St. Paul seems to be directly using Old Testament terminology to describe a descent into some sort of lower regions, something most likely referring to Hades/Sheol.

This needs to be read in conjunction with the sermon of St. Peter in the 2nd chapter of Acts, where he quotes the Prophet David "Thou wilt not abandon my soul in hell (Hades), nor wilt thou suffer Thy Holy One to see corruption," with regard to Christ (vs 27, and then restating it for good measure in vs. 31 that Christ's "soul was not left in hell (Hades), neither his flesh did see corruption.")

Both Sts. Peter and Paul are speaking of Christ's descent into Hades -- the former in the sense that Hades could not hold him captive, the latter with the added bonus that he "led captivity captive" in the process.

Again, in light of the LXX being used by the Apostles, this seems to be a fairly clear use of language -- but then, I have a tendency to think that Orthodox teachings are always clear. :-)

The liturgical texts of the Orthodox Church are pretty clear on where Christ went. For instance, the stichera at the Synaxarion reading of the Paschal Vigil reads pretty clearly:

"Xristos katelthon palin Athou monos,
Lavon anelte polla tis nikis skila"

(Having gone down alone to do battle with Hades,
Christ hath come up, bringing many trophies as spoils.)

The full text of the Synaxarion reading includes this passage: "And now, having rescued all human nature from the dungeons of hades, He hath led it up to the heavens and restored it to its ancient dignity of incorruption. Yet having descended into hades, He did not resurrect all, but only as many as whose will it was to believe. The souls of the saints of ages past held perforce by hades He freed, and granted them all to ascend to the heavens."

The very moving Irmos of the 6th Ode of the Canon at Matins of the Vigil of Pascha (my personal favorite of the Irmoi) goes as follows:

"Thou didst descent into the nethermost depths of the earth (en tis katotatis tis gis), and dist shatter the everlasting bars which held those who were bound, O Christ, and like Jonah from the sea monster Thou didst rise from the tomb on the third day"

And the 2nd troparion of the 7th Ode: "We celebrate the slaying of death, the ruination of Hades, the beginning of a new and everlasting life..."

And the 3rd sticheron of the Praises at Matins: "O Christ Who by the Resurrection didst make Hades captive and raise men from the dead, count us worthy to hymn and glorify Thee with a pure heart." (Thus the Slavonic, although the Greek says "o ton Athin skilevsas," which more directly means that Christ "spoiled" Hades, in the sense of plundering it / carrying off booty.)

I'd better quit, before I get excited and start chanting the entire Paschal service and wake up my family!


5,373 posted on 05/01/2006 11:59:07 PM PDT by Agrarian
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To: kosta50; Agrarian
There is no biblical evidence of any of what the Orthodox call and depict in icons as the Harrowing of Hell, the resurrection of the Dead, the Anastasis. The source is the Apostle's Creed ...

OK, I hadn't read this when I last posted. Thanks for the background.

I looked up 1 Peter 3:19-20 in my Bible and the note does say that some take it as you described. It also said that the "most likely" meaning is that "this is a reference to the preincarnate Christ's preaching through Noah to those who, because they rejected that message, are now spirits in prison."

5,625 posted on 05/04/2006 11:55:35 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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