"Agrarian says that there are many OT references to Messiah as God."
Actually, whast I wrote was: "There are few OT references to the Messiah as God, but they are there..."
Given the fact that I misinterpreted or quoted Kosta, this is only fair game! :-)
The most prominent example that spring to mind is the quotation that Christ himself used to silence the Pharisees: "... the Lord said unto my Lord..." And there are several references to the universality of the Messiah's work, encompassing the Gentiles, making the Messiah at the very least more than a glorified Jewish warlord.
"As for Moses and Elijah — on Mount Tabor, they had, shall we say, "inside information." All the people will recognize Christ after death."
Yes, they will recognize him after death, but how will they respond to him? That is the real question in the Orthodox understanding of the afterlife. If Moses and the Prophets lived and died utterly convinced that God could not become man, and held a faith that was as incompatible with Christianity as was the official Judaism of Christ's day and after, then one could only assume that they would reject Christ after death as surely as they would have rejected him had they encountered him during life.
"Again, I hear over and over that the Judaism at the time when Christ walked on earth was "different" from the rabbinical post-Jamnia Judaism, yet I see no proof or specifics to defend such an assertion."
I, for one, have never asserted this. I believe that the official Judaism of Christ's day was just as misguided as was later rabbinical Judaism. I do not believe that the words and actions of the Pharisees reflected the faith of the Patriarchs and Prophets. I am in good company, since Christ himself told the Pharisees the same thing! :-)
My only contention is that there *were* Jews (perhaps reflecting a particular strain of Judaism) who quickly and readily recognized and embraced Christ, and came to recognize him as God. I will leave off the argument from hades, and reduce it to this: had the Patriarchs and Prophets been able to encounter Christ in life, would they have rejected him as did the Pharisees, or would they have embraced him as Lord and God?
If there really is a radical discontinuity between the faith of the Patriarchs and prophets and the faith of the Jews who embraced Christ as Lord and God, then the only possible answer is that Moses and Elijah, had they been around in life, would have been part of the lynching party. That is a legitimate position to hold, but would be one that I would find takes at least as much stretching as does the Church's traditional understanding...
"yet their only problem with Israel was that the Jews kept reverting to worshiping idols."
Yes, while Moses and the Prophets themselves encountered God at the level of theosis, the reality they were dealing with "on the ground" was on an entirely different level. The primary decision that the people were having to make was whether to worship the demons in form of idols, or to worship the one true God. There are thus reasons why the Pentateuch is dealing with some pretty basic issues compared to the lofty writings of the Apostle John.
The process of bringing the people of Israel to the point where they would produce the Theotokos was a long and hard one. This would perhaps explain at least in part why the type of Savior alluded to in OT times was primarily one expressed in terms they could most readily relate to at the time.
But, as St. Gregory Palamas said, the OT Patriarchs and Prophets achieved theosis (albeit in a necessarily temporary fashion), and directly encountered God. They would therefore, have recognized that same God were he to have become man in their time. One who reads what they wrote had the opportunity to have the same encounter, and this is why Christ insisted that the Jewish leadership of his day did not understand their own Scriptures. If they did, they would have recognized him.
"If they had the same faith, why were the Patriarch and Prophets in Hell when Christ descended there? They were righteous, yet they were condemned!"
They were in Hades -- the place of the dead (Sheol in Hebrew), which does not at all necessarily mean a place of torment and punishment. They were subject to death because death had not yet been conquered by Christ's resurrection. Even St. John the Baptist was in Hades, and he recognized Christ for who he was.
Yes it is. taste my own medicine. Thank you. :)
The most prominent example that spring to mind is the quotation that Christ himself used to silence the Pharisees: "... the Lord said unto my Lord..."
I am glad you mentioned this example, because preceding that quote Jesus asks who do they think the Messiah is a son of? And they answer: David. This is so in line with Judaic understanding of the meshiach, the "anointed" warrior king of Israel. It shows that Judaism of Christ's time on earth has not changed. So, what do you think Moses and Elijah would have answered?
What did +Thomas say and became famous for? Did the myrrth bearing women not doubt? Were they not asked why there were looking for the dead among the living? They didn't come to anoint a living body they believed would resurrect but a dead one! If all the miracles He performed in the Gospels really happened, they would have expected Him to be up and alive! Yet no one, not one really believed and it took +Thomas to put his fingers into His wounds to believe and say "My Lord and my God."
The whole cascade of Christian tidal wave started after they all realized that He is indeed Risen! And that all this was, despite their doubts, really true! What a rush! But until that time, everyone doubted. Mary did not come tell the disciples "Don't worry, He'll be up and about..."
As for your quote, obviously the one who is anointed by God to be the king is a Lord of a LORD. But it does not mean that he is divine. Stretching, as I said.
This can also be seen in the Hebrew expression the "World to Come." The Christians converted it into the Kingdom of Heaven, but to the Jews it means the world after the meshiach established peace on earth, rebuilt Jerusalem, and converted everyone to the God of Abraham, all in real time and physically on this earth.
Now, we could say the Jews has "sporoi" or "seeds" of truth (as most religions on earth do) and did not understand their own revelations, that much I will grant, but to say that observant Jews whether they were Patriarchs or Prophets believed what we believe in is a bit of a stretch.
In that case we need to re-establish communion with the Catholic Church immediately by stretching the theology a wee bit. If Christianity and Judaism are one and the same faith, certainly Catholicism and Orthodoxy are!
As to whether Moses and Elijah would have recognized Christ on earth is a speculation. We presume they would. But we really don't know. Salvation in Orthodoxy is not achieved by recognition of the faith, but by becoming Christ-like, which is why all of them, including John the Baptist had to be rescued from Hell, because none of them were Christlike, where they? After all, Moses committed a murder by killing an Egyptian in revenge.
I know, we are here going about semantics, but if they were not in hell strictly speaking but "only" in Hades (I do remember that icon with the gates of Hell knocked down into a cross though) and were destined to go to heaven, why were they not in heaven to begin with? Come on, Agrarian, Orthodox belief as to what happens after one dies is well known to you: you are immediately judged and you go to the Hades where you foretaste the bliss of heaven or damnation of hell.
The "discomfort" people feel in the Hades regardless of their destiny is because souls are separated from their bodies (which is an unnatural state) and attached to unrepeated sin; they are then comforted with our panekhidas and purified in that way because they cannot repent themselves any more. The truly righteous go to heaven and need not be pulled out of the Hades as a special favor.
The only Old Testament righteous person we know who for sure recognized Christ was St. John the Baptist, and even he had to be rescued pronto. And what about our Ancestral Parents, Adam and Eve. Did they ever repent? Last time I checked, God gave them a chance to repent in the Garden and they failed and started this whole mess. They, too, were pulled out of the Hades.
Stretching, dear brother, is an understatement. The Jews do not believe they should love their enemies. Did Moses? Did David? Jews do not believe that they should turn the other cheek and never return evil for evil. Did Moses? Did David? Jews do not teach that blessed are those who are poor in spirit.n Did Moses? Did David?
That is uniquely Christian, unprecedented in Judaism, unknown to Judaism. How can it be one and the same religion? I have never heard that Moses or David or any of the righteous OT Jews preached or believed anything like that. So, if it was unknown to Judaism it was new, a new religion. What the Pharisees saw and heard was Jewish "Protestantism." Just as we say "where are you coming from? We have known this for 2,000 years and now you are telling us we were wrong all this time?" So did the Pharisees. And for that they were called the sons of the devil. I am sure if Jesus wanted to soften their hearts he could have and would have, but He didn't. And that's an altogether different topic!
Think about it: if we had an individual who told us all our beliefs were false and that he was the son of God in flesh we would put him in a mental institution, and some Evangelist might even kill him.