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To: Forest Keeper
Job was blameless from the POV of any other human. No one could observe Job from afar, examine his actions in the (then) present, and find fault with him

Out of curiosity, I looked up the Hebrew version of Job 1:1 and the word used there is tam which is translated as "perfect, complete" etc. Modern lexicons define "perfect" as being without blemish, complete...

You seem to distinguish between "perfect" and "faultless," a word which is a synonym of perfect. What you are really questioning is whether perfect also means sinless, knowing that Job confessed that he is not without sin. Yet Septuagint (LXX), the Greek-language OT predating Christ says that Job was "true, blameless, righteous, and godly, abstaining from everything evil."

Clearly, the last part of that sentences makes a very strong suggestion that he was perfect even when it came to committing sin prior to the events that were to follow.

Various versions of the Bible say different things, and are therefore "understood" differently. In all this, the focus becomes on the verse, word by word, and not the spiritual message behind the story -- which is: never blame God for your misfortunes.

Therefore, Paul must mean that no one is perfect in the eyes of God

Well, that much we agree on. However, not only does the OT mention the righteous, but so does our Lord Jesus Christ, so whence came those, if according to +Paul, none is righteous?

4,905 posted on 04/20/2006 6:49:07 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper
You seem to distinguish between "perfect" and "faultless," a word which is a synonym of perfect. What you are really questioning is whether perfect also means sinless, knowing that Job confessed that he is not without sin. Yet Septuagint (LXX), the Greek-language OT predating Christ says that Job was "true, blameless, righteous, and godly, abstaining from everything evil." Clearly, the last part of that sentences makes a very strong suggestion that he was perfect even when it came to committing sin prior to the events that were to follow.

I hate to butt into this conversation but I would suggest that Job, who God called His "servant" was indeed blameless before God. That doesn't mean Job did not sin as Job himself admitted. It means that God viewed Job as blameless.

This is used repeatedly in the book of Kings where it often starts out as "King So-n-so" did what was good/bad in the sight of the Lord" and then proceeds with their life story. God passed judgment before He tells their story. You will note that with some evil kings they did some good things. With some good kings they did some bad things. That never changed God's view.

This is precisely how God views each of us. We are either blameless (righteous) before God or we're not. That doesn't mean those who are "blameless" before God are perfect. It simply means that God does not view our sin because our righteousness comes from God and is determined by God. Yes, even our righteousness is a gift from God.

You just pointed out an excellent principle of righteousness.

4,915 posted on 04/21/2006 4:49:43 AM PDT by HarleyD ("...even the one whom He will choose, He will bring near Himself." Num 16:5)
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To: kosta50; HarleyD
What you are really questioning is whether perfect also means sinless, knowing that Job confessed that he is not without sin. Yet Septuagint (LXX), the Greek-language OT predating Christ says that Job was "true, blameless, righteous, and godly, abstaining from everything evil."

Yes, I must question it because I believe every word in the Bible is true. When there are apparent contradictions there must be an explanation. The alternative is that the Bible isn't true. Whether the word is "blameless", "righteous", "godly", or "perfect", it cannot mean "sinless" in this context. Harley's explanation makes "perfect" sense to me. :) God sees some of us as blameless or righteous, but that doesn't mean we do not sin. The beauty of it is that this idea is backed up by scripture.

In all this, the focus becomes on the verse, word by word, and not the spiritual message behind the story -- which is: never blame God for your misfortunes.

I don't see why there cannot be focus on both. Yes, the message is very important AND so are the words. I'm a living example because my chosen text is the NIV, which goes idea for idea rather than word for word.

However, not only does the OT mention the righteous, but so does our Lord Jesus Christ, so whence came those, if according to +Paul, none is righteous?

Yes, this fits in with what Harley was saying. Many are called righteous in the Bible. Some examples are Noah, Joseph, Simeon, Abel, Zechariah, Lot, Abraham, Paul, Silas and Timothy. So, who is Paul talking about in Rom. 3:10? Well, he obviously can't be talking about any of the people listed, or anyone else who is righteous in God's eyes. But Paul does say "none", implying that all are unrighteous. Is that ever true? Yes, that is true of everyone before salvation. This idea also matches what Paul says 13 verses later, that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". If that statement was meant to convey a permanent condition, then no one goes to heaven. He was again speaking of everyone before salvation. Not that we don't sin after salvation, but that a truly regenerated heart no longer falls short.

Rom. 3:21-24 : 21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. (emphasis added)

4,923 posted on 04/21/2006 4:02:35 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
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