""Born again" implies that I was born once in the same manner already. I believe your Bible translates "born again" incorrectly."
Indeed it does. The verb is a form of beget. It's not that we are "born again" but rather that God begets us again. I don't see that as a fine distinction at all, by the way. The rest of the verse, the part the Protestants tend to leave out in their proof texting, is "...to a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead...." Thus we see another of the verses which the Fathers used to point to Christ as the Second Adam who destroyed the power of death over us.
"Sure there were a bunch of Church fathers who took the counter view. But there were just as many who sided with Augustine."
Harley, I'd like to see even one Father who agreed with your interpretation of +Augustine.
Harley, I meant to ping you to #4819; sorry!
I just got a book in the mail on this subject, so I'll let you know. But off hand, I highly doubt we'll find more than a couple that God does not desire all men to be saved or ANY saying that God reprobates man actively to hell... It is sad when such a prolific writer as St. Augustine is so misunderstood. What is interesting is how St. Augustine's writings regarding sacraments, Mary, Saints, the Eucharist, and the Church are totally ignored by these same folk...
Regards
Universal Salvific Will of God
1. Implicitly revealed in the Old Testament in various places, such as:
“And I will bless those that bless thee and curse those that curse thee, and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.’ (Gen 12:3). Paul cites this verse in Galatians 3:8, saying “...and the Scriptures, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Gospel beforehand to Abraham…” Therefore, the call of all nations to salvation would be announced to all nations
“I the LORD have called thee in righteousness and will hold thee by thine hand; I will keep thee and place thee as [my] covenant unto the people as light unto [the] Gentiles.” Is 42:6
The mercy of God was even offered to wicked nations:
“Leave thy fatherless children (Edom); I will raise them; and thy widows shall trust in me.” Jer 49:11
“the LORD said, Thou hast had pity on the gourd for which thou hast not laboured, neither didst [thou] make it grow; which came up in a night and perished in a night: And shall I not spare Nineveh, that great city, in which are more than one hundred twenty thousand persons, that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand, and many animals?” Jon 4:10-11
“Say unto them, [As] I live, said the Lord GOD, I do not desire the death of the wicked but that the wicked turn from his way and that he live; turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?” Ez 33:11
“But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he has committed and keep all my statutes and live according to judgment and righteousness, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his rebellions that he has committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him; by his righteousness that he has done he shall live. Do I desire perchance the death of the wicked? said the Lord GOD, Shall he not live if he should leave his ways?” Ez 18:21-23
2. Explicitly revealed in the New Testament:
“No temptation has taken you but such as is common to man, but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above what ye are able but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it]”. (1 Cor 10:13). Paul realized that God had made a covenant with man. In the New Covenant, Paul certainly knew that God had made an infinite Covenant. God, out of fidelity, will give help to ANY man who desires to overcome temptations.
“The Lord is not late concerning his promise, as some count lateness, but is patient with us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” 2 Peter 3:9
And of course, 1 Tim 2:3-6: “For this [is] good and pleasing in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires that all men be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth for [there is only] one God and likewise [only] one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself in ransom for all” There are also a number of verses that talk about Christ dying for the sake of the sin of ALL men, but we have enough verses here…
3. The Church Fathers…
According to my source, there are over 200 citations by the Church Fathers that talk about the Universal Salvific Will of God, both East and Western Fathers:
St. Gregory of Nyssa: “’The Father raises the dead and gives them life, and the Son gives life to whom He will’ – we do not conclude from this that some are cast out from the lifegiving will…If then, the Father’s will (attitude) is in the Son, and the Father, as the Apostle says ‘wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth’ it is plain that He who has everything that is the Father’s and has the whole Father in Him, along with other good things of the Father has fully also the Salvific will…For not because of the Lord’s will are some saved, but others are lost: for then the cause of their ruin would come from that will. But by the choice of those who receive the word, it happens that some are saved or lost” Adv. Apollinarium 29. PG 45.1187
St John Chrysostom expresses the same thing numerous times. “God never compels anyone by necessity and force, but He wills that all be saved, yet does not force anyone…How then are not all saved if He wills all to be saved? Because not everyone’s will follows His will. He compels no one.” Homily on enduring criticisms 6. PG 51.144
And the Western Fathers are no different:
St. Ambrose (the Christian teacher of St. Augustine) speaks of Christ as a Levite, bringing out the salvific love of God for ALL individuals: “’Levite’ means ‘undertaken for me’… He therefore who was expected and came for the salvation of all, for me was born of the virginal womb, for me was offered, for me He tasted death, for me He rose. In Him the redemption of all men was undertaken….The Redeemer is the Levite, for the wise man is the redemption of the unwise man. He like a physician cherishes the sick soul of the unwise man….For He saw that those who suffered could not be saved without a remedy, and so He provided medicine for the sick. He gave the means of health to all precisely in order that whosoever perishes should attribute the cause of his death to himself, he who was unwilling to be cured although he had the remedy by which he could escape. Let the manifest mercy of Chrsit to all be proclaimed; for those who perish, perish by their own negligence; but those who are saved, are delivered according to the sentence of Christ, ‘who wills all men to be saved…’” de Cain et Abel 2.3.11. PL 14.364-365
Again, St. Ambrose’s teachings on Psalm 39 “He wants all whom He has made and created to be His; would that you, O man, would not flee and …hide yourself; for He seeks even those who flee”. In Ps 39, n.20. PL 14.1117
St. Augustine seems to flatly deny God’s universal salvific will in some passages. However, in others, he at least seems to speak in the same way as the other Fathers. He too explains that the difference between the elect and the reprobate depends on the human will. For example: “’God wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth’; but He does not will it in such a way as to take free will from them, by the good or bad use of which they may be judged most justly.” De Spiritu et littera 33.58. PL 44.238.
In his Confessions, he brings out God’s care for individuals: “…you care for each and every one as if you were caring for him alone, and you care in such a way for all, as if you were caring for them individually.” Confessions. 3.11.19
St Prosper, who defended some of St. Augustine’s teachings after his death, wrote : “Likewise, he who says that God does not will all men to be saved but only a certain number who are predestined, speaks more harshly than one should speak about the loftiness of the inscrutable grace of God, ‘who wills all to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth’ and who fulfills the design of His will in those whom He predestined after foreknowing, called after predestining, justified after calling, glorifying after justifying…so that those who are saved are saved for the reason that God wanted them to be saved, and those who perish, perish for the reason that they merited to perish”
Salvation comes from the salvific will of God, which wills the salvation of all – but ruin comes from the wicked will of man. A Thomist, F. Muniz, OP, sums it up well about the desertion theory: “Negative reprobation before prevision of sins seems to us to be completely incompatible with the universal salvific will of God”
God’s love for man is sincere – just as His will to save all men. Love, as defined by St. Thomas, is “to will good to someone for his own sake”. Clearly, God is Love, and thus wills that man achieve union with Him. He did not even spare His only Son – that’s how deep His love for mankind is.
Objection – If God wills all men to be saved, why are not all saved?
“Just as a human father can have vehement love for all his children, and yet disinherit a son because of many and great offenses, so also our Father in heaven. For God is unwilling to force anyone. God made us free. If we wish to use our freedom perversely, we are able to do so, for God will not force our liberty. St. Thomas says : “The power of the divine incarnation is indeed sufficient for the salvation of all. The fact that some are not saved thereby comes from their indisposition, because they are UNWILLING to receive the fruit of the incarnation within themselves…For freedom of will, by which he can adhere or not adhere to the incarnate God, was not to be taken away from man, lest the good of man be forced, and so rendered meritless and unpraiseworthy.” CG 4.55
If God had left anyone with little or no opportunity for salvation, He would have little or no room for the salvation of that man. But actually, God has provided infinite objective titles for each individual, and has done so by surmounting the tremendous obstacle of sending His Son to die so dreadful a death. He has proved, therefore, that He set NO limits, short of the miraculous, which He will not pass to save an individual. Man himself sets limits, by his resistance to grace. God can forestall or overcome that resistance, but that would require a strictly extraordinary grace, comparable to a miracle.“ (Grace, Predestination, and the Salvific Will of God, F. Most, pg 121-122)
I hope this make it more clear that the Church has ALWAYS considered that God greatly desires that all men be saved, but refuses to do so if man completely turns away from God. He gives everyone the ability to follow His commands – but to those who choose not to – He will condemn.
Does this sound like a God who does not greatly desire man to turn to Him?
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that didst kill the prophets and stone those who are sent unto thee, how often I desired to gather thy children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!" Mat 23:37
Regards
Well, I would cite Saint John Calvin but I doubt if you would feel that qualifies. Instead Augustine points to Saint Cyprian as instructing him in the Reformed belief; so I guess that qualifies as "one" Father. ;O)