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To: HarleyD
That God in His "foreknowledge" elects people. This is precisely what Augustine said was not so.

Sed contra: "For the ordering of His future works in His foreknowledge, which cannot be deceived and changed, is absolute, and is nothing but, predestination ... Why are they not afraid that exhortation to these other things, and the preaching of these other things, should be hindered by the definition of predestination? Or, perchance, do they say that such things are not predestinated? Then they are not given by God, or He has not known that He would give them. Because, if they are both given, and He foreknew that He would give them, certainly He predestinated them. ... That is, therefore, He predestinated them; for without doubt He foreknew if He predestinated; but to have predestinated is to have foreknown that which He should do." (On the Predestination of the Saints, II:41-2, 47).

Now, if what you say is true, that Augustine denies that "man somehow makes a choice to choose God or reject God," then what do you make of his words, for he himself writes as follows: "And thus, when it is said, 'For who maketh thee to differ? and what hast thou that thou receivedst not?' if any one dare to say, 'I have faith of myself, I did not, therefore, receive it,' he directly contradicts this most manifest truth,--not because it is not in the choice of man's will to believe or not to believe, but because in the elect the will is prepared by the Lord" (On the Predestination of the Saints, I:5). Doesn't Augustine clearly reject the opinion that "it is not in the choice of man's will to believe or not to believe," and isn't it this same opinion that you've just ascribed to him? What Augustine affirms here, and here the Church has added her voice to his, is that only those who predestinated by God are moved to believe by his grace which "precedes, prepares and elicits our free response" (Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, §425).

You quote from Calvin as follows: "Ought we not then to be silent about free-will, and good intentions, and fancied preparations, and merits, and satisfactions?" Yet Augustine was not silent about any of these things, and I could give very many examples of him writing and speaking about merits and satisfactions, free-will and good will, and preparations for grace (these preparations, of course, are from God also).

4,769 posted on 04/18/2006 6:30:20 PM PDT by gbcdoj (Let us ask the Lord with tears, that according to his will so he would shew his mercy to us Jud 8:17)
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To: gbcdoj
Now, if what you say is true, that Augustine denies that "man somehow makes a choice to choose God or reject God," then what do you make of his words

Although I've searched for this passage and can't find it. Off hand, if he did state it, I would say your misinterpreting his words. Here is some of Augustine's views on foreknowledge which can be found in A Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints

Unfortunately, this is the argument I've been getting; that election is nothing more than God looking down through some "corridor of time" to see what OUR choice is going to be. At best others will state, "Ah, shucks! I don't understand it. It's a mystery." Fact is either of this views show a problem in understanding the grace of God. If you cannot understand that God foreknew us because He predestined us then, as Augustine points out, you cannot understand grace.
4,782 posted on 04/19/2006 1:42:04 AM PDT by HarleyD ("A man's steps are from the Lord, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24 (HNV))
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