Replies

What you have stated is that man somehow makes a choice to choose God or reject God. That God in His "foreknowledge" elects people. This is precisely what Augustine said was not so. I can appreciate the Orthodox who are up front with Augustine and state they don't buy into his views. But to say that Augustine said X when he said Y is not being true to yourself.

See what ya gone and done??? Drag me back into this...

I disagree that St. Augustine says "Y" - in other words, that man's will is totally corrupt - as defined by the Reformers. The Reformers claim man has free will, but it cannot choose good - ever. So how free is a bound will?

First of all, you should know that St. Augustine said a LOT of things. Taken out of their context, they appear to contradict. Remember, Harley, he was fighting TWO extremes in Manichaeanism and Pelagianism. You focus only on the latter without realizing all he said about the former. As I have pointed out in your previous letter and snippets, you must be CAREFUL in coming to conclusions when reading St. Augustine. HE holds to BOTH Grace and Free Will - defined as the ability to choose or to not choose to do God's will. "A Treatise on Grace and Free Will" begins with the commentary :

IN THIS TREATISE AUGUSTINE TEACHES US TO BEWARE OF MAINTAINING GRACE BY DENYING FREE WILL, OR FREE WILL BY DENYING GRACE; FOR THAT IT IS EVIDENT FROM THE TESTIMONY OF SCRIPTURE THAT THERE IS IN MAN A FREE CHOICE OF WILL; AND THERE ARE ALSO IN THE SAME SCRIPTURES INSPIRED PROOFS GIVEN OF THAT VERY GRACE OF GOD WITHOUT WHICH WE CAN DO NOTHING GOOD.

I have found that your postings do just that. They ignore free will in the effort to hold up God's Sovereignty. But Sacred Scripture, as Chapter 4 of this work AMPLY notes, man DOES have the ability to choose a morally good action in a given situation. Augustine himself comments that God does not give commands that MAN CANNOT FULFILL:

"Now He has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in a man a free choice of will. But how He has revealed this I do not recount in human language, but in divine. There is, to begin with, the fact that God's precepts themselves would be of no use to a man unless he had free choice of will, so that by performing them he might obtain the promised rewards." Chapter 2, Treatise on Grace and Free Will

As a result, man CAN choose the good - with God's graces. Since man's will is wounded, not totally corrupt (as Luther or Calvin would have it), man bears responsibility for utilizing the aid that God gives him. Man's free will is not destroyed as a result. God does not overpower His creation

This, of course, destroys the Reformation idea that man is TOTALLY corrupt. St. Augustine NEVER says that, as far as I can tell. Certainly, he says that man's will is aided by God. Looking at the big picture, one must be careful to balance God's gift of grace during an action, and God's gift of free will. God does not give a gift to man so as to counteract it with another gift! I believe we both agree that God has given man the good gift of free will. St. Augustine dedicates a whole section to it in "The Problem of Free Choice" in Book 1. Thus, if the will is good but wounded, God would not find it necessary to completely bear the responsibility for an action of man. This concept leads to too many ideas that are certainly not Christian, but pagan determinism and fate - making God out to be an unjust, random tyrant who makes man responsible for something he cannot do - even with God's help.

Regarding the rest, naturally, you don't expect me to define St. Augustine according to Jean Calvin, do you? Please don't quote me Augustine through Calvin - they have quite a different view on a number of issues - to include the interaction of grace and free will. As usual, you cite me a number of issues that I and Catholicism already believe, trying to create some sort of false dichotomy. Of course we believe that God is the author of salvation and that man requires faith, which only comes from above! As usual, you deal with the EITHER/OR, rather than the BOTH. You are trying to rationalize the faith to a degree that man will never be able to do in this world. We must hold to BOTH truths found in Scripture, admitting that we have not tied up all of the loose ends (for example, does God base His election on what He foresees a man might do?)

Regards

A careful reading of Augustine shows this isn't the case. This is the main beef of the Orthodox with Augustine; original sin. As Augustine stated:

I think I have now discussed the point fully enough in opposition to those who vehemently oppose the grace of God, by which, however, the human will is not taken away, but changed from bad to good, and assisted when it is good.

Please note the human will is changed from "bad to good". This is what I harp on with Romans 6 where we were slaves to sin, now we're slaves to righteousness. This is consistent with the Reformed position.

I have found that your postings do just that. They ignore free will in the effort to hold up God's Sovereignty.

Nonsense. You'll find that I do not ignore man's free will. I place it square where it ought to be; behind God's sovereign will.

You'll find I'm in complete agreement with Augustine's writing on Grace and Free Will. It is you who are taking snippets of the first part and ignoring that last part. You certainly would not agree with Augustine's statement:

I think, sufficiently clear that God works in the hearts of men to incline their wills whithersoever He wills, whether to good deeds according to His mercy, or to evil after their own deserts; His own judgment being sometimes manifest, sometimes secret, but always righteous.

This, of course, destroys the Reformation idea that man is TOTALLY corrupt. St. Augustine NEVER says that, as far as I can tell.

The Orthodox gets it; you don't.

As usual, you cite me a number of issues that I and Catholicism already believe, trying to create some sort of false dichotomy.

I post my sources. You tell me what books you have read.