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God retains control, but we still have freedom of will. Jo kus tried, unsuccessfully I see, to point out to you that God transcends time and that He knows all the decisions we make, good and evil, past, present and future, of all the people in the world, who lived, live and will live, as happening all at once and integrates them into His plan --

As Jo is my witness, I never directly argued against the idea that God was timeless, or even that He sees all time as happening at once. I say that I really do not have a problem with that. What he and I disagreed on strongly was the implications of this for certain issues.

All of us agree that men make sinful choices. But, when you say that God integrates those choices into His plan, that makes me wonder who is in control. ("Integrate" is a time-sensative word.) God has perfect foreknowledge, but does He or does He not create and ordain that foreknowledge? If He does not, then history could have turned out any which way, right? What if prior men's choices had added up to everyone being doomed? That has to be a possibility in your book if God does not ordain. This is why I am a little puzzled when you say that God is in control.

I never directly argued against the idea that God was timeless, or even that He sees all time as happening at once

You keep saying that, FK, but your words tell otherwise.

What if prior men's choices had added up to everyone being doomed?

That's because you believe that all men are dead. God knows that not all men are dead and that some can be the vessels of God's goodness in the world; therefore not all men will make evil choices as your theology conveniently suggests.

"Integrate" is a time-sensative work

For humans, but for God I doubt it. It was none other than Blessed Augustine who translated from Greek his famous line "Qui vivit in aeternum creavit omnia simul" (He Who lives in eternity, created everything at once). It turns out his knowledge of koine Greek was not too good, so the correct word is not "at once" but "together," but nonetheless the meaning is the same — God not only made, but integrated everything from the beginning.

That's why I have been telling you all along (with no avail apparently) that God's plan has been accomplished, and all our decisions and lives, past, present and future, incorporated (i.e. integrated) into it.

As Jo is my witness, I never directly argued against the idea that God was timeless, or even that He sees all time as happening at once. I say that I really do not have a problem with that. What he and I disagreed on strongly was the implications of this for certain issues.

I don't have the urge today to repeat ad nauseaum what I have already said a number of times. From our discussions, I have found that the concept of "timelessness" has not transferred over to your (FK) paradigm of God and how He "sees" and "acts" within our history. Sorry if I was unable to help...

Christ is risen...Oh death, where is thy sting!!!

Regards