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To: Forest Keeper
Kosta to FK: God remains sovereign, because he weaves our good or evil decisions, all of which are foreknown to Him, into His plan

FK to Kosta: Now let's say that your two-year-old wanted to go out and play on the roof. Would you weave those wishes into your plan and hoist a ladder? If you did, would you really be sovereign over your child?

If climbing over the roof of your house was the way for your child to get where you want him/her to go, convoluted as it may seem, I would say that your providing the ladder would be essential in accomplishing your intention to bring the child to the other side.

You think of it as cruel, yet you have no problem believing that God created humanity, some of whom were predestined to perdition? You have no problem with God drowning wicked humanity? Is that what we do to our kids -- what the Old Testament seems to say God does to man? When we see how wicked our children are, unable to do any good of their own, do we drown them? Or do we kick them out of the house?

You have used examples of letting children play in the traffic and doing nothing, and now this one with the roof. sadly, they compltetely miss the mark.

To use paradigms consistent with your theology (Calvinism), not only do you have children in your house who could have come only from you, yet some you acknowledge as your children while others you deny; you favor some while others you reject and have, in fact, favored or rejected them according to your own thinking before they were even born!

You find nothing wrong with God placing his own children in a situation where they are tempted and, when they act on their temptation despite your warning, you cast them out of your home and let them fend for themselves; you not only punish them, but their offspring for all generations too!

Yet, somehow, I trust that your household, and how you relate to your children, born or unborn, is not as your theology portrays God -- and humanity He created. And certainly it is not ours.

What I was trying to impress upon you is that God knows our decisions and that the eternal and all-knowing God knew them from eternity. His Plan is like a puzzle, and each man's decision is a separate piece of it, all laid out in front of God, weaved into what we call His plan.

If God created laws that govern billions of galaxies to move effortlessly and gracefully as island universes, He can integrate our decisions and weave whatever He wants with our free will in order to save those who are willing to be saved by choosing to come to Him.

At no point does free will diminish God's sovereignty, power or glory.

4,602 posted on 04/11/2006 5:47:10 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
You have no problem with God drowning wicked humanity? Is that what we do to our kids -- what the Old Testament seems to say God does to man? When we see how wicked our children are, unable to do any good of their own, do we drown them? Or do we kick them out of the house?

I have no standing or right to have any problem with how God set up the universe. If the Bible said that one out a thousand would be saved, then I would be "fine" with that. We all have a specific duty to take care of our children, God has no such duty to every person. Out of grace and mercy, He takes care of His elect.

You find nothing wrong with God placing his own children in a situation where they are tempted and, when they act on their temptation despite your warning, you cast them out of your home and let them fend for themselves; you not only punish them, but their offspring for all generations too!

Yes, Adam and Eve were punished for their sin. But, if you believe that they were still ultimately saved, as I do, then God could not have abandoned them forever, or else they could not have been saved. If I felt the need to blame someone for the sinful nature I had at birth, it would not be God, it would be Adam. Praise God that nevertheless, He has mercy on some.

If God created laws that govern billions of galaxies to move effortlessly and gracefully as island universes, He can integrate our decisions and weave whatever He wants with our free will in order to save those who are willing to be saved by choosing to come to Him.

I'll grant that God COULD do it that way, but I maintain that this would diminish His sovereignty and glory. With your puzzle analogy, we decide the shape of the pieces and then God has to make them fit. Of course He COULD, but that doesn't match your earlier statement that everything comes from God. If it did, then God would shape the pieces Himself.

4,645 posted on 04/13/2006 12:01:28 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
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