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To: Forest Keeper; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; qua
FK, thanks for the ping.

"AlbionGirl, the Calvinist", that's rather a shock to see in print! Not that I find it in any way unpleasant, just startling in that if you would have suggested a year ago that is where I'd be today I would have said you were crazy. But, being that I took so easily and readily to so much of Calvin's theology, I have to conclude I was probably a crypto-Calvinist for quite a while. I don't see him at all as the caricature men draw of him. I see him as a man who loved God with fervor, who was offended at His suffusion in myriad medieval accretions, who saw the tyrannization (sp?;word?) of the consciences of the faithful as harmful. He wasn't alone, there were some Catholics who were offended as well, but they didn't see the solution to those problems in the same way Calvin did.

I went out to dinner last week with a friend I hadn't connected with in quite a while. We began with a margarita, and any inhibition to speak what was on my mind disappeared almost immediately, as I don't consume alcohol that often, so its effects on me are almost immediate. Anyway, I began to tell him of my trek over to the Calvinist side of the isle, and he burst into a roar of laughter that took him a few minutes to reign in. He's a Buddhist. The laughter was not one of derision or mockery, but one of recognition, it was as if his peal of laughter declared, 'I knew it!'.

He's a well-educated man who has been as good as gold to me since we developed a friendship back in the early 90s. We're a couple of misfit celibates, who nonetheless aren't in the least bit misanthropic.

He says that on balance he's a fan of Calvin, not for religious reasons at all, but for reasons pertaining to the effect of Calvinistic thought on personal industry, capitalism, liberty, etc.

As I discussed with him though, here's my dilemma: I was a Catholic for 50 years, I can't stop making the sign of the Cross when I sit down to eat, when I want to chase away an unworthy thought, if I wanted to. I can't not bow my head when I hear Jesus's name articulated, if I wanted to.

Yesterday was the beginning of Holy Week. That I recognize and love Holy Week will never, ever change. When I was a kid my Mother used to try to get me and my older brother to remain silent during the hours from 12 to 3 on Good Friday. She never believed it was possible to get a 5 year-old and an 8 year-old to remain silent for 3 hours, but she was trying to instill in us a reverence for the Blessed day, and she sure was successful. My brother and I would look at each other with a look that said, 'ok, we're really going to do it this time', then we'd start saying our prayers in Latin, and be struck by how funny sounding mulieribus was, and burst into a muffled snickering. My Mom would say, 'shush', and the sequence would begin anew. These are such precious memories to me, and all of this is in my bones.

On my desktop at home, I have a picture of +Mary of Egypt, an Orthodox saint, whose life, legendary or not, has so many parallels to my own, minus the Saint part, of course, that I find immense comfort in the moral of her story.

I didn't know anything about her until last Friday, when an Orthodox priest, who I became acquainted with last summer when attending Divine Liturgy, included me in an email he had sent out to his Faithful. He has sent me a copy of the Parish Bulletin every week since I attended. He's a pretty smart man, and a very good Shepherd.

So, as you can see, my ecclesial eclecticism has the potential to produce a cacophony that makes it difficult for me to fully assess where I fit in, organizationally speaking. The only thing I do know is that I couldn't remain Roman Catholic, and that I will never return to their fold.

Now, as far as God having created it all, good and bad? I think that's a given, and I liked your shark eats man illustration.

The one doctrine of Calvinism that I have tremendous trouble with though, is his doctrine of Predestination. In particular, the idea of reprobation before the foundation of the world. He seems to have wanted to downplay that himself, as it represents a small part of his Institutes, relatively speaking. I think Calvin's main point, the thing he was driving at the most, is that it is dangerous for man to find or try to find that private place inside himself that secretly believes in the power of his own goodness and righteousness. Ego is the name of that private place. And in that, I'm in full agreement with Calvin. I must also confess that I'm probably frightened of his doctrine because of the death of my youngest brother, and the concomitant implications.

Finally, I'm sorry to have rambled on so, but I do thank you for sparking my ability to do so, and for listening, my friend.

4,480 posted on 04/10/2006 8:02:04 AM PDT by AlbionGirl (Inizio Settimana Santa. Ingresso di Gesu in Gerusalemme.)
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To: AlbionGirl; Forest Keeper; HarleyD; qua; ears_to_hear; the_doc
Your posts are more engaging than the morning newspaper, AG. I've come to really look forward to them and the journey they illustrate.

As far as the concepts of Predestination and reprobation before creation go, I think they are often miles apart for Calvin. I agree with you that he seems very careful to encourage us not to dwell on things that are not explicitly detailed in Scripture. And who goes to hell is one of them. We have enough before us just realizing our own salvation and working through it with confidence and industry.

But Calvin is rock-solid when it comes to Predestination. For me, that is the one detail of faith that rings most true. Either God names every star, numbers every hair, sent Christ for our salvation, controls every atom He created, or He doesn't. Between those two choices, the former seems clearly correct.

I think God loves His sheep to such a great extent that those whom the sheep love are covered by His promise. God has obviously given you great faith, and the knowledge of who He really is and what He really does. I don't think there's a place in that faith to worry about your brother's salvation. If heaven is our reward and all happiness is in heaven, then be confident you will see his face again.

Ultimately, we trust in Him.

As far as Holy Week goes, Protestants observe it, too. Easter morning is the most important day on the Christian calendar because it proved the promise true. Easter morning is what separates Christians from all others. The Trinity prevails.

As far as the external rituals of being a Roman Catholic, it may take some time to unlearn 50 years of behavioral patterns; "entanglements," as Calvin calls them. But ultimately, I think it's a worthwhile undertaking, and one which we are instructed to obey.

"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." -- John 4:24

A lot of extraneous effort tends to pack itself around the pristine truth of Christ risen. In my own life I've found that paring down the externals really reveals the sparse truth of the internal -- saved by Christ alone. Here's a good examination of the topic...

THE TEACHING OF JESUS ON WORSHIP

4,481 posted on 04/10/2006 10:27:54 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: AlbionGirl; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; qua
... if you would have suggested a year ago that is where I'd be today I would have said you were crazy. But, being that I took so easily and readily to so much of Calvin's theology, I have to conclude I was probably a crypto-Calvinist for quite a while.

It is exactly the same with me, except it only goes back to one day before this thread started for me. :) Before this thread, I really didn't know that Reformed theology existed in an organized way. I was so happy to find kindred spirits here, to meet new friends, and to learn that I hadn't been making this stuff up all along. :)

Thank you for sharing the stories of your friend and your childhood. When you spoke of your dilemma, I was going to answer in a certain way, but then I read Dr. E.'s reply (... it may take some time to unlearn 50 years of behavioral patterns; "entanglements," as Calvin calls them.) and I had to rethink it. I decided to just tell you what I was going to say, and ask Dr. E. if I'm off the reservation on this one. :)

I was going to say that I didn't think you had a dilemma at all. :) Both of the things you mentioned that you still do now, making the sign of the cross, and bowing your head at the name of Jesus have a few things in common for you. They are both things you grew up with and are now ingrained, they are both things you do that make you focus on God, and they are both things you do in reverence of God.

In "the before time" :) you did these things within a specific belief system that was given to you. These practices meant specific things to you based on that system. Now, however, though you still have the practices, your view of God has either changed, or at least it is very different from others who have the same practices. You have a new/different belief system about God in certain respects. Now, I'm guessing, when you make the sign of the cross and think of God, it's not from the old paradigm you were told to follow, it is from the new one you have accepted now. And when you bow your head in reverence, it is under your new system of accepted beliefs.

I was going to say that if all this is true, then I don't see a dilemma. To me it isn't the gesture or habit followed that is of primary importance, it is what it means to the person in terms of worship and reverence for God. After all, those are reminders of something. If those things now remind you of God in a new way consistent with your beliefs now, then I would say "great". And, if those things only remind you today of a prior belief system that you now disagree with, well, then that would be a dilemma. :)

I suppose it must come down to whether it is possible to separate the practice from the old belief. If not, then consider everything I've said to be a big "Never Mind!" LOL! I hope that's not true because I love simple, little things that remind us of God. He knows so well how much we need them. :)

4,535 posted on 04/11/2006 1:09:05 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: AlbionGirl; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; qua
The one doctrine of Calvinism that I have tremendous trouble with though, is his doctrine of Predestination. In particular, the idea of reprobation before the foundation of the world.

Unlike my last post, in which I could only guess what it is like to move from Catholicism to this faith, on this issue I know exactly what you are talking about. In my case, it concerns my mother, who died two years ago. Growing up in my home, I was raised with no spiritual guidance at all, just the generic "yeah, we're Christian". It was only until God used outside influences on me that I came to believe on Him in my late teens.

After I married right out of college and became established in an SB church, I started to worry about her and her salvation. I witnessed to her for years, but to no avail. She openly rejected God at this point. However, I asked her about her childhood and she told me that she was a regular church-goer then and that she had accepted Christ as her savior. At the time, I believed in "once saved, always saved", so I said "Whew, at least she's covered".

Then I learned about "Perseverance of the Saints", and it was quite a bitter pill to swallow, exactly because of the implications you mentioned. Today, I reconcile it by saying that if it is really true that God chooses His elect, then there was nothing I could have done. I could have witnessed to her seven days a week, and it wouldn't have mattered. In addition, every minute that I spend beating myself up about it now is just another minute that satan has won over me. Pass.

Ultimately, it is only God who decides who goes to heaven, and all of my observations, my little theories about, and even my own excuses for my mother are meaningless. I will know the truth someday about her fate, so all I can do now is to continue trusting in Him. His will defines "perfect", His will shall be done, so what else can I do? :)

4,536 posted on 04/11/2006 2:08:03 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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