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To: jo kus
But yet, Adam sinned. As a result, we have lost that sanctifying presence that enables man to choose the good. This sanctifying presence is restored upon our regeneration. But all of this is not part of OUR nature. ... If our nature is sinful, then Christ did not take on a human nature. The Scriptures says that Christ was born sinless. Thus, if human nature = sinfulness, Christ only APPEARD human.

I suppose the only way this could work is that humans are not born with human nature, they are born with some other nature. Is there a name for this non-human nature that we are born with? Christ, therefore, was the only one born with a real human nature, a nature of sinlessness. But even here, we still run into all of your objections to Christ being born unlike us. OTOH, if you have Christ being born with a fallen nature, then you have Christ fighting against Himself. Very odd result.

So, Christ was born without sanctifying presence in order to be like us? Did He receive this sanctifying presence at His Baptism, as an adult believer? If so, how was Jesus able to do any good before that? It really seems like you are completely redefining what the human "nature" is. You are forced to reject that there is any blemish in human nature. Of course this goes directly against scripture.

What does any of that have to do with the Spirit interceding to the Father for us - IF all is "done"?

All is done but the doing, so to speak. Fortunately, we do not have to rely on ourselves for the doing, or else it would be as you say, and not really done. However, since God promises us He will take care of the doing we can know for sure that it will happen, thus, for all intents and purposes, it is "done" if one believes that God is reliable. The Spirit is a part of all this.

So how do you know you have "truly" asked for forgiveness of sins? Again, you are basing your "salvation" on a human quality - the manner of asking for forgiveness.

I would call it faith, but if I am basing my knowledge of my own salvation on a human quality, then you do the same thing. You rely on the teachings of extra-Biblical men for your salvation. You say the Spirit leads them only, I say the Spirit leads them and all believers.

FK: "Paul correctly reiterates that perseverance is necessary."

Perseverence from what? Falling away as the Jews did...

Yes, this is evidence that those Jews never had faith to begin with. I read 1 Cor 10:1-12 and it doesn't say that any of them ever had true faith, it says they acted like others of faith and practiced similar rituals. So what? Anyone can do that.

4,291 posted on 04/02/2006 2:50:36 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
So, Christ was born without sanctifying presence in order to be like us? Did He receive this sanctifying presence at His Baptism, as an adult believer? If so, how was Jesus able to do any good before that? It really seems like you are completely redefining what the human "nature" is. You are forced to reject that there is any blemish in human nature. Of course this goes directly against scripture.

I never said any of the above. And from my reading of the Orthodox replies to your questions, neither did they. The nature that humans possess now, before Baptism, is not "human nature" as created by God. Jesus took on that nature - and He certainly IS sanctifying grace.

All is done but the doing, so to speak. Fortunately, we do not have to rely on ourselves for the doing, or else it would be as you say, and not really done.

Perhaps you should start thinking from man's point of view, since you don't possess God's knowledge. We work out our salvation in fear and trembling, PRECISELY because it is NOT done yet.

You rely on the teachings of extra-Biblical men for your salvation. You say the Spirit leads them only, I say the Spirit leads them and all believers.

As do you. How do you know that the "Bible" is really the Word of God? Do you have any originals? How do you know that you don't have forged copies and that the Gnostic Gospels (a la Da Vinci Code) are the "real" Gospels of Christ?

Secondly, you are beginning to construct quite a strawman of Catholicism, aren't you? When did I say that the Spirit ONLY leads those in the heirarchy? I said in matters of doctrine, they lead the Bishops. You claim the Spirit leads you, I claim that, and all of your Baptist friends claim the same thing. Obviously, He doesn't lead us all in the same direction... And your idea that "as I become sanctified, I will be led more properly" is patently false on matters of doctrine.

I read 1 Cor 10:1-12 and it doesn't say that any of them ever had true faith, it says they acted like others of faith and practiced similar rituals. So what? Anyone can do that.

"True faith"? Where exactly does the Scripture use those two words together? Another Protestant concoction, I suppose. Either someone has faith, or they don't. The Jews who crossed the Red Sea had faith at that moment. They lost it in the desert. Paul uses this as an example for the Christians in Corith. What exactly is the point of this story (AN EXAMPLE, Paul calls it) for the Corinthians IF the Jews didn't have "true faith". This is another great example of Protestant eigesis.

Regards

4,310 posted on 04/03/2006 5:21:53 AM PDT by jo kus (I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore CHOOSE life - Deut 30:19)
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