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To: jo kus
Once a person has turned his life over to God and actually begins to try to live the life God meant us to live, mortal sin is rare, if non-existant. I don't remember the last mortal sin I confessed.

From New Advent:

Mortal sin is defined by St. Augustine (Contra Faustum, XXII, xxvii) as "Dictum vel factum vel concupitum contra legem æternam", i.e. something said, done or desired contrary to the eternal law, or a thought, word, or deed contrary to the eternal law. (emphasis added)

You can't remember the last time you said a word, or even had a THOUGHT contrary to eternal law??? Your wife is one lucky woman! :)

You appear to contradict yourself in these two sentences. First, you future actions do matter - I presume towards salvation. Second, God has already chosen you and you cannot fall. So tell me, why do your future actions matter if you have already declared yourself saved irrefutably?

Future actions matter because of all the "perseverance" verses that you can quote to me better than I can to myself. :) The difference is that I do not say I "choose" to persevere, if I am of the elect. It is a part of being chosen by God that the future actions will necessarily occur. It might be akin to the fulfilling of prophecy in real time. One could say "why bother with the fulfillment if the result is already ordained anyway"? The answer is that the fulfillment is also ordained, so it must be so. For the elect, God has already ordained that future acts will occur, regardless.

Ah, well this is a new concept from you. Previously, you have told me that one must have knowledge of Jesus Christ and believe upon Him. Why does it make sense to you that God would pick some elect who don't have access to the Bible?

Yes, I do believe that the elect must have knowledge of Jesus and believe on Him. In my knowledge I know Him in English as "Jesus the Christ". I didn't know what His disciples called Him until I saw "The Passion". :) Of course there are a million other translations and names that refer to only Him. The English name "Jesus" is of no consequence, it is the person of Jesus that matters.

It makes sense to me that God would pick some elect who don't have access to the Bible because Jesus had tremendous compassion for the poor and unprivileged. (IOW, He wasn't an American leftist! :) Therefore, He doesn't pick His elect based on the blessings, or lack thereof, He bestows on them. The disciples were not chosen for their education or wealth or success in the world, so I don't see why the elect should be either.

4,201 posted on 03/30/2006 2:33:06 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
Mortal sin is defined by St. Augustine

St. Augustine is NOT the official source of Catholic teaching. I don't know if you are taking him out of context or what. But a mortal sin as taught by the Church is much more serious than what you quote the Saint on. It is an "individual act done knowingly, willingly and deliberately in a serious violation of God's will and Law." That narrows the field quite a bit! I'll presume that my wife will agree with you!

The difference is that I do not say I "choose" to persevere, if I am of the elect.

How exactly does that work? How do you "not choose" to persevere in the actions that you do?

The answer is that the fulfillment is also ordained, so it must be so. For the elect, God has already ordained that future acts will occur, regardless.

So what is the difference between you and another Christian, all things equal, who both love God and claim eternal salvation - but then, ten years from now, you are still persevering and the other is not? HOW on earth would that other Christian KNOW TODAY that he would fail in the future? Or you? We don't know we are of the elect with absolute certainty. The proof is in the claim of "you were never saved to begin with" line that you'd apply to the "fallen away" - who mysteriously did all of those good deeds without Christ - although he thought he was IN Christ during that time. I am thoroughly confused on how you can make this claim and simultaneously claim you KNOW your "salvation" is secure when you don't even know you are saved today to begin with!!!

Yes, I do believe that the elect must have knowledge of Jesus and believe on Him.

Romans and 1 John disagree with that statement. So does Jesus Himself. Paul in Romans 2 says that even the pagan can follow the law the Christ wrote on their hearts (as Jeremiah prophesied). Thus, they are spiritually circumcised and are able to obey the Commandments, even though they don't have a copy of the Decalogue. 1 John says that anyone who loves abides in Christ. Those who abide in Christ will be saved. And Jesus talks about judging the nations and separating the goats from the Sheep. Note that the principle guideline is not whether they know Christ, but whether they ACT like Christ - which can only come from God's Spirit Himself. Thus, people can be part of the Church unknowingly, as I have said before when discussing Vatican 2 and the Constitution of the Church document.

The disciples were not chosen for their education or wealth or success in the world, so I don't see why the elect should be either.

I'd have to quote hundreds of verses to show that man is expected to obey commandments, to repent, to turn from evil, etc... God does not command what cannot be done (through the use of Grace). It is my opinion that God sees our response in the same "moment" that He chooses and elects us. Being elected for grace is not the same thing as being elected for glory. Many are chosen, but few heed the call. The road is narrow...etc...REPENT and BELIEVE! YOU!

Regards

4,207 posted on 03/30/2006 3:53:50 PM PST by jo kus (I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore CHOOSE life - Deut 30:19)
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