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To: annalex; Agrarian
Biblical truth is whatever the Tradition teaches. If it teaches a hard fact then the truth is in the hard fact

I am glad you mentioned that. However, the example you give of +Peter receiving the keys is different from saying the earth is flat. There is nothing hard-fact about +Peter receiving the keys — we accept it on faith.

The Orthodox would say that what is in Philokalia is what Church teaches, spiritual message or hard-fact; that the Fathers would never teach anything the Church does not believe, did not believe or will not believe.

Here is what +Gregory Palamas had to say about the world, quite authoritatively, I must add:

"Establishing the immovable earth as the centre He encircled it in the highest vault with the very moving heavens and in His great wisdom bound the two together by means of intermediary regions...For while the heavenly bodies encircle the earth in rapid and perpetual motion, the immovable body of the earth necessarily* occupies the central position, its state of rest serving as a counterbalance** to the heaven's mobility..."

Needless to say, he did not prove any "necessity" in any of this, and the "counterbalance" is an intuitive conclusion except that in the universe it involves an equal and opposite force, not lack of it. Thus, binary stars "dance" around each other, instead of one being "counterbalanced" while the other stands immobile. If that is your 2+2=5, then it's obviously wrong. The Church needs to stay with the spiritual ideals and not make inerrant hard-fact claims about anything because none will be found in the Scripture. To put it mildly, +Gregory Palams has notions yet he presented them as "facts."

The Church should teach mercy and as virtues, and stay away from math.

4,197 posted on 03/30/2006 1:27:27 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
We know that individual fathers can be wrong on matters of faith, so they can be wrong on matters of physics. The Church (East or West) does not teach that the immovable earth sits under a vault. The Vatican, in fact, has an astrophysical laboratory somewhere.

This example does not show that the truths of the Holy Tradition must be confined to the matters of faith and morals.

***

This being said, let us be clear that geocentrism is not exactly wrong. The geocentric view would complicate the mathematics, as it is an inconvenient coordinate system. Nevertheless, science (yes, science, -- not Bl. Palamas) teaches that observations from any coordinate system form a scientifically valid picture of the world. Einstein loved to imagine a physics lab falling in an elevator or twirling around a ferris wheel. His insight was that a physicist in such a lab does not need to know anything about the peculiar trajectiory of his lab to arrive at the correct laws of physics, even though he might have a harder time with it.

Let me tell you about myself. I live in a geocentric world. It rotates around Elk Grove, CA. in the evening. In the morning, the center moves to Roseville, then goes back. Except on weekends. It is very stable under the vault, although we had too much rain lately in the intermediary regions. Most people I know live just like Palamas explained. True, some of us busy themselves with matters that compel us to adopt innatural heliocentric view, or even the perverse milkyway-centric view. They are but exceptions that prove Palamas's astrophysics in their own peculiar way.

If the Church begins to teach geocentrism again, nothing will change. We'll have the same seasons, the same satellite TV, and the same Carl Sagan intoning about "billions and billions"

4,198 posted on 03/30/2006 1:55:54 PM PST by annalex
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