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To: Forest Keeper
What I'm zooming in on, is just how exactly does God's foreknowledge affect His predestination decision? What is the influence?

There is a rather broad school of thought on this issue within the Church. Some believe the God chooses His elect without any foreknowledge of our response, while some believe that God does utilize His foresight of our response to determine the elect. The Church has not declared in one way or the other, merely saying that the two sides cannot declare each other anathema. The Spirit has apparently not revealed this information to mankind in an infallible manner.

My view is that God chose us first, and that His foreknowledge of our acceptance included that it was caused by Him. Therefore, there is no conflict.

Again, time! God chose us "first". From God's point of view, there is no time, there is no "first" or "second" or "last". To us, certainly, God chose us first. But since we are talking about God's choice, I don't see how God CANNOT foresee our response and make His decision based on that. Of course, either opinion is acceptable to the Church.

in accordance with his pleasure and will— ...(emphasis added) No human influence is implied

That doesn't follow. God's will and pleasure might very well BE to choose those who choose Him - granting more grace as that man continues to accept God more in His life. If the man turns from God, God turns from the man, withholding further grace that might "force" the man to Him. The above verse does NOT imply that human influence is not involved.

Regards

3,917 posted on 03/22/2006 4:11:04 AM PST by jo kus (I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore CHOOSE life - Deut 30:19)
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To: jo kus
Again, time! God chose us "first". From God's point of view, there is no time, there is no "first" or "second" or "last". To us, certainly, God chose us first. But since we are talking about God's choice, I don't see how God CANNOT foresee our response and make His decision based on that. Of course, either opinion is acceptable to the Church.

My position would be equivalent to the view of some Catholics that God makes His decisions without foreknowledge. I would be interested to know if that view follows up with my conclusion that therefore, God must have caused our acceptance, otherwise, not all of the elect would accept, and there would be a paradox. That would seem to get rid of free will, so how is this resolved?

God's will and pleasure might very well BE to choose those who choose Him - granting more grace as that man continues to accept God more in His life. If the man turns from God, God turns from the man, withholding further grace that might "force" the man to Him.

Then God is not sovereign. If God's will is DEPENDENT on man's choices, then we have some measure of power or affect on God. I do not believe it could be God's will to give us power or influence over Him, just as I do not believe that God delegated powers unique to Him to man. You are denying God's omnipotence.

4,035 posted on 03/25/2006 3:44:59 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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