Do you HAVE to know the existence of hell to be able to love? Christ abides in those who love, even the man in the Amazon jungle. Does he know about the Christian concept of hell? Who cares. He who has Christ has life. Of course, this is the lowest common denominator. We are not subject to that level of knowledge. Who in America can say "I never heard about hell?" God will not punish someone for ignorance, if it is beyond their control.
Are you saying that we, as believers, will witness the existence of hell after our physical deaths? I thought purgatory is different than hell.
I think when you see Christ during judgment, hell will exist by default. I doubt whether we will be given the grand tour...
I said : Reciting the Sinner's prayer does not make someone Christ's sheep.
You responded: I agree that is not the causal element.
So the Sinner's Prayer does not make someone elect. Well, that's a start.
I "think" you are saying that such as person was one of the sheep, but then left the fold. If true, then how do you interpret the certitude Jesus espouses in this passage?:
I don't think anyone, from man's point of view, can KNOW they are of the sheep onto eternal happiness. Looking back, we'll see we were all along. But I don't see our initial justification, our initial healing (saving) as the end of the road. Otherwise, it would make pointless all of those many verses that talk about perseverance, falling away, and being judged for heaven or hell based on our works of love or lack thereof.
All the sheep will receive eternal life. But that "separation" will not occur until the final judgment. For example, consider Mat 25 and the Sheep/Goat parable. Christ KNOWS who is a sheep and who is a goat. The "animals" don't separate themselves. Christ does. Nor do the "animals" recognize Christ in their actions of goodness or refusal to do good. Another parable is the wheat and cockles. The wheat looks identical to the cockles - and thus, only upon judgment will the wheat be separated from the weeds. In both cases, you are already doing the separating. You are judging yourself, not Christ. It is ONLY Christ who KNOWS who will be the wheat/weed FOR CERTAIN and who is the sheep/goat. WE can have an idea today, but that doesn't necessitate that we always were and will be the elect.
Regards
Where did you get the idea that I was saying that someone was required to believe in hell to be saved? I was just pointing out that a believer who does have access to the Bible should believe in hell because of how clear the concept is in the Bible. Besides, what would a believer say we need saving from if there is no hell?
So the Sinner's Prayer does not make someone elect. Well, that's a start.
Right. God named the elect before the foundation of the world, so that was the causal element. Saying the Sinner's Prayer, or some form of it, is what all of the elect will do per God's ordination. It is the moment of salvation and when the Spirit descends upon the believer.
For example, consider Mat 25 and the Sheep/Goat parable. Christ KNOWS who is a sheep and who is a goat. The "animals" don't separate themselves. Christ does. Nor do the "animals" recognize Christ in their actions of goodness or refusal to do good.
But I thought that the sheep do follow the Good Shepherd because they recognize His voice.