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To: jo kus

The frustration you're experiencing isn't with me. The frustration is with the simple fact that there is no way to rationally explain how we "cooperate" with God if one truly understand God gives us our faith and everything else. If God gives us faith, then we have faith.

The only way Jonah could have repented was if God granted it. The only way Jonah could cooperate was if God granted it. The only way Jonah could have had faith was if God granted it. Jonah's own will (and ours) are controlled by God.

The Orthodox are right to dismiss the Council of Orange's statement because it is not what they believe and as far as I can determined never have. They believe in man's free will and all that entails-denial of original sin, lost of salvation, etc. They, at least, are consistent with their historical beliefs. However this is not what the west believed and is highlighted in the Council of Orange's statements.


3,808 posted on 03/20/2006 9:38:07 AM PST by HarleyD ("A man's steps are from the Lord, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24 (HNV))
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To: HarleyD

God indeed gives us our faith. He also created us with free will or volition, so that when we quench the Spirit, he no longer is free to continue our sanctification and further our faith or doctrine or thinking within our spirit until we return to Him by turning away from disobedience and returning to Him and confessing our sin to Him for His grace to forgive us and work again upon our soul, and our spirit.


3,810 posted on 03/20/2006 9:49:35 AM PST by Cvengr
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To: HarleyD; Kolokotronis; kosta50
The frustration you're experiencing isn't with me.

Is there another person using your screen name? :)

The only way Jonah could have repented was if God granted it. The only way Jonah could cooperate was if God granted it. The only way Jonah could have had faith was if God granted it. Jonah's own will (and ours) are controlled by God.

Jonah could not have done any of the above without God. But it doesn't follow that God ALONE did any of it - which is what you presume. I am merely quoting the teacings of St. Augustine - "God saves no man without man". No, I can't explain HOW or to what degree we cooperate with God. But it is clear from Scripture that we are commanded to obey - and are given the freedom to choose life or death. Certainly, we are given the ABILITY to choose one or the other - but it doesn't follow that we are puppets.

The Orthodox are right to dismiss the Council of Orange's statement because it is not what they believe and as far as I can determined never have.

IF the Orthodox reject the Council of Orange, it is because of its discussion on original sin, which is the preliminary compilation on the subject from the PART of the Church - and later re-affirmed by an Ecumenical Council at Trent. I would presume that is the reason, IF they do... I am pretty sure that the Orthodox do not teach that man can come to God without God... I'll ping a few to make sure. I am sure they will correct this if wrong.

As to free will not being part of the Church's beliefs, I haven't seen you respond to this being part and parcel of the Church Fathers, especially the ones I listed from the first two centuries. Also, I don't find in Orange 2 that makes the claims you make regarding free will. The key word you seem to be overlooking is "WITHOUT GOD". That is the key aspect of this heresy. We cannot come to God WITHOUT God.

Regards

3,824 posted on 03/20/2006 11:37:12 AM PST by jo kus (I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore CHOOSE life - Deut 30:19)
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