Really? I thought Paul was directly quoting the Psalms! The Bibles that I have looked at ALL refer to the appropriate Psalm verses that he quoted. Seems interesting that what Paul says at the very end of Romans 2 is then contradicted by saying ALL men sin!!! WHY does Paul talk about a Law written on the hearts of Gentiles - who are OBEYING IT!!! Whew...I don't know what else to tell you.
Therefore, there is no contradiction, Paul and the Psalmist are talking about different people.
Right. That is why Paul DIRECTLY quotes them. Romans 3 is Paul's LONGEST series of quotes directly from the OT, but you would have Paul mean them to be unrelated to their context??? What hoops Protestants must jump through to maintain "all men are evil"...
Of course some men seek God. They are the ones who have been blessed with the grace to do so.
But aren't they men? Are not men who have been blessed with grace to follow God STILL considered men????
In fact, if you wanted to narrow it down, you could look at verse 24, and conclude that Paul was only talking about all SAVED people, since he references their justification. That is even worse for Mary!
OF COURSE Paul is talking about "saved" righteous people! But you said ALL MEN are evil!!! Paul is not talking about all men and their particular nature, but evil, wicked men who refuse to turn to God. Some men DO NOT refuse to turn to God. Some are pagans who have the Law of God written on their hearts, for God's sake!!! They are spiritually circumcised, and are Jews by faith!
My version of that verse is a little different from yours. Instead of "trespass", mine says "unfaithfulness".
My version was the KJV. I am betting yours is the NIV, which is not a literal translation, but a dynamic one. Be wary of dynamic translations, because the editor's interpretations are part of the Scriptures. You are no longer reading God's Word, but someone else's interpretation of what God is saying...
Obviously a truly righteous man cannot be in nature unfaithful, therefore, the man must be self-righteous, or, this man was never saved to begin with.
I don't see that in the Scriptures. You are reading your theology into it.
Some promises are executed and completed immediately, other promises cannot be completed until a certain amount of time has passed. This is the latter. Jesus promised that He would send His elect the Spirit to look out for us
But that would be inconsistent to your theology. According to you, you are already saved. So what would the Spirit need to intercede for you for? You have made it clear that YOU think you can do nothing to lose your salvation!
I said that all of the elect will ask for forgiveness via God's grace. All others who ask for forgiveness will do so without God's grace and it won't "count".
LOL!!! Read that carefully. Those who ask for forgiveness of God WITHOUT God's grace????????? Does not the Bible and our conversations make it clear that men DO NOT SEEK OUT GOD WHO ARE EVIL OR WICKED??? ANYONE who seeks out God through repentance is drawn by God!!!! Men cannot come to God and repent without God. Now, you are telling me that men can repent to God by themselves? Make up your mind... This is a ridiculous theology. Come on.
All of the elect will say some equivalent of the sinner's prayer
Yes, but it doesn't follow that all who say the sinner's prayer will be ultimately saved for heaven. So how do you make the determination that you...Oh, forget it...
No, I'm saying that God raised the dead, and the Apostles were witnesses.
Funny, Scriptures mention Peter and Paul fulfilled a special role - more than just witnesses - during those actions. Seems that God's Power worked THROUGH those Apostles. They were more than just witnesses! Other people "witnessed" the miracle as well. Scripture gives Peter and Paul more credit than you.
It is the same with priests. Yes, you claim authority for them, and I disagree. But, there is no way you can argue independent standing.
I don't make any such claims. I am merely relating what the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth says - along with the Word of God. It says that Christ has given the Apostles the power to forgive or retain sins. Pretty clear. Priests have authority to forgive sins - AND they do so not only by the power of God, but as representatives of the community - which sin is against.
Well, that's mighty sweet of you there, Joe. Thank you. {regarding you equating rape to love}
Sorry, a bit over the top. But isn't that what forcing love upon someone else is?
Regards
But aren't they men? Are not men who have been blessed with grace to follow God STILL considered men????
Maybe the reason I still can't understand what your whole point is with all this is that I don't have a grasp of what you think I think. Do you think that I think that all men are evil for all time? If so, then I do not. All men are born into a sinful nature that will remain so without the saving grace of Christ. Once the sinful nature has been exchanged for a righteous nature, then we are eligible to do good in God's eyes. When Paul said "all have sinned" he meant that all humans who have lived have sinned in their lives. No one outside of Christ was sinless.
My version was the KJV. I am betting yours is the NIV, which is not a literal translation, but a dynamic one.
Yes, I am using the NIV. It is dynamic and I like the approach of translating idea for idea. I would think there would be just as many problems in a word-for-word translation because of how meanings of words have changed, if even subtly, across time. But, I am no expert in this area.
FK: "Obviously a truly righteous man cannot be in nature unfaithful, therefore, the man must be self-righteous, or, this man was never saved to begin with."
I don't see that in the Scriptures. You are reading your theology into it.
OK, in the scriptures, show me a truly righteous man, who is in NATURE unfaithful. Righteous men do sin, of course. Look at Moses. However, the Bible clearly says that to be righteous in the first place the old must have gone and the new must have come. That is, unless you are saying that those who are slaves to sin can really be righteous people at the same time.
But that would be inconsistent to your theology. According to you, you are already saved. So what would the Spirit need to intercede for you for? You have made it clear that YOU think you can do nothing to lose your salvation!
There is no contradiction. The Spirit is needed for many purposes. The promised Spirit is Who makes sure we do persevere, the future included actions I have spoken of before. We do not persevere based on our own goodness. The Spirit moves us through sanctification. He also prays for us in our lives here on earth. We often do not have the right words in prayer for what we really need. The Spirit does. We wouldn't make it without the Spirit.
FK: "I said that all of the elect will ask for forgiveness via God's grace. All others who ask for forgiveness will do so without God's grace and it won't "count"."
LOL!!! Read that carefully. Those who ask for forgiveness of God WITHOUT God's grace????????? Does not the Bible and our conversations make it clear that men DO NOT SEEK OUT GOD WHO ARE EVIL OR WICKED??? ANYONE who seeks out God through repentance is drawn by God!!!! Men cannot come to God and repent without God. Now, you are telling me that men can repent to God by themselves? Make up your mind... This is a ridiculous theology. Come on.
I'm glad you were entertained, but I have no idea why you are addressing these comments to me. If I had said anything like what you seem to have interpreted, then it would have been ridiculous. I'm glad I didn't. Anyone can say the words "God, forgive me", but if it is without God, then they are pretenders and are not forgiven or saved. I cannot fathom how you twisted what I actually did say into a belief on my part that men can repent by themselves.
[On the example of raising the dead] Funny, Scriptures mention Peter and Paul fulfilled a special role - more than just witnesses - during those actions. Seems that God's Power worked THROUGH those Apostles.
Yes, I agree they fulfilled a special role. I meant witnesses in the same sense that the authors of the Bible were witnesses to their own writings! :) Of course, they were there and participated in the miracles. God's power absolutely did work through the Apostles. Peter spoke, and then right after that something happened, so I do not think he was in a corner somewhere just watching while all this happened.
... But isn't that what forcing love upon someone else is?
No, it is nothing like that at all. Rape is a crime of violence, not love. I think the type of love God shows us is like a parent overpowering the will of a child who chooses to run into the street in front of a speeding bus. If God respected the free will of His children, whom He has chosen and loves, He would let them do just that. It doesn't happen.