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To: Forest Keeper
I don't take perseverance to mean perfection as you appear to do.

I don't either. Remember, we have Purgatory? However, our basic direction in life must be Christ. IF we do those sins of the flesh, we are given an Advocate who will forgive us of our sins. The Sacrament of Reconciliation is always available to those who choose (through God's Spirit) to return to the Lord's ways. The "unforgiveable sin" is the sin that man does not ask for the forgiveness of.

I wonder why Paul doesn't back up any of these types of passages with "so run to your priest after any one of these sins or you are lost".

I wonder why Paul never mentions the word "trinity", "altar call", "Sinner's Prayer", or "protestantism"....As I said before many times, all of Paul's thoughts and ideas are not written down in the Scriptures...They are letters that we happen to have, preserved by the Church.

Again you make the perfect case for ping-pong justification. Saved one day, lost the next.

Sorry you disapprove of Scriptures. But your "saved one day, lost the next" is clearly an exaggeration.

If someone rapes and murders my loved one, and I feel hate, then I have just damned my soul to hell. After justification, it's damnation to them all, UNLESS ... well, Paul never tells us around these passages.

You have heard of the idea of repentance?

I just mean that if Paul really is advocating ping-pong salvation, he seems to only give the "ping" side and never the "pong". If that's true, I find that odd.

Paul talks about reconciliation, for example, in 2 Cor 5.

Jesus tells us to be Baptized, and a regenerated heart wants to obey. But if someone is truly of the elect, then nothing can cost him his salvation, not even the failure to be Baptized. None of us are perfectly obedient to God.

Baptism is given for the remission of sins. Thus, if you aren't baptized, your sins aren't forgiven. How does that make you of the elect, then?

God's "offer" is nothing like a tainted $1,000,000 :)

God's offer is not given to us with full and entire revelation. It is based on faith. You keep mentioning that "who would choose hell?" Indeed. No one. People choose a life without God. That is the same thing. Hell is an existence without God. Now whether that state means fire and brimstone, who can say? But clearly, people will choose a life without God and His ways. That is what people choose. Life without God's ways, God's Laws, God's Love. A person who willfully does this over the course of their life will not be saved, regardless of Baptism they received 20 years ago.

Regards

3,793 posted on 03/20/2006 4:44:33 AM PST by jo kus (I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore CHOOSE life - Deut 30:19)
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To: jo kus; Forest Keeper
Paul talks about reconciliation

The following scriptures refer to confession and absolution:

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity

(1 John 1)

16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

(James 5)

7 Why doth this man speak thus? he blasphemeth. Who can forgive sins, but God only?

(Mark 2; also Matthew 9)

21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

(John 20)


3,817 posted on 03/20/2006 10:46:41 AM PST by annalex
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To: jo kus; annalex
The "unforgiveable sin" is the sin that man does not ask for the forgiveness of.

I think we touched on this eons ago, but I can't remember your position. Is the unforgivable sin, simply any mortal sin that the person does not ask forgiveness for? Or, is it a specific sin against the Spirit?

I wonder why Paul never mentions the word "trinity", "altar call", "Sinner's Prayer", or "protestantism"....

The first three are solidly based in scripture. You know the verses that lay out the idea for the trinity. The altar call is just one of many means of accomplishing the Great Commission. I can't imagine you would object to it. The Sinner's Prayer is just a means of crystallizing belief. It is a means of "confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord". As you know, there is no "official" Sinner's Prayer, just general guidelines that help the believer understand that he IS a believer. ... As for Protestantism, it is just the same thing that Catholics have always done. It is the rejection of perceived error. That is a Biblical idea also.

FK: "I just mean that if Paul really is advocating ping-pong salvation, he seems to only give the "ping" side and never the "pong". If that's true, I find that odd."

Paul talks about reconciliation, for example, in 2 Cor 5.

Sure he does. But I don't see anywhere that he implies that we must be reconciled over and over again. In fact, the opposite is implied in verse 17. Once we come to Christ once, the old has gone and the new has come. Do you think Paul is saying that we exchange our old and new natures on an on-going basis? I don't see that in this scripture or any other.

Baptism is given for the remission of sins. Thus, if you aren't baptized, your sins aren't forgiven.

I'm not sure how you view "remission of sins". It seems that your view is that Baptism would only be effective until the next mortal sin, right? Since the next sin wipes out the Baptism, why is it so significant? You don't get Baptized over and over again, do you? Besides, what are the sins of infants that are being remitted?

Hell is an existence without God. Now whether that state means fire and brimstone, who can say?

God can. Here is an excerpt from What Does the Bible Actually Teach about Hell? by Greg Johnson:

"• Hell is final. There is no second chance after death. “Man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment” (Hebrews 9:27)."

"• Hell is everlasting. It never stops. It is “eternal” (Daniel 12:2) and “everlasting” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), and the smoke of their burning goes up “forever and ever” (Revelation 14:11). We moderns may miss this image, since we don’t use fire on a daily basis. As long as the fuel remains, the smoke continues to rise. When the fuel is used up, the smoke stops rising. In hell people are burned, but the smoke keeps rising forever. They burn, but never fully come to an end. Such torment is called “the second death” (Revelation 21:8), where they are forever “outside” the gates of heaven (Revelation 22:15)."

"• Hell is conscious. No sleeping here, where “there is no rest day or night” (Revelation 14:11). Notice the rich man’s pleadings in Luke 16:19-31. Hell’s victims are conscious."

...

"• Hell is painful. Jesus described it as “the fiery furnace” (Matthew 13:40-42), “the eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41),“the darkness,” “outside” where there will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 8:12). Hell is “the blackest darkness” (Jude 13). Revelation calls it “the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:15). Whether hot or cold, bright or dark, all these images are images of extreme suffering."

"• People will be condemned to hell at the Second Coming and Day of Judgment. The sentence of hell is given at Jesus’ return (2 Thessalonians 1:7, also Matthew 25:31)."

...

"• Hell is both physical and spiritual. It follows the resurrection of the dead (John 5:28-29), so those who suffer in hell will suffer bodily as well as in spirit. Jesus said it was “better to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell” (Matthew 5:30). Hell will be a place for our bodies as well as a condition of our souls. Beware those who make hell sound too ethereal and spiritual."

"• Hell is real. This isn’t just language the Bible uses to get a response out of us. Jesus warns us about it because it really does exist and really is our destiny. He loves us enough to warn us in advance."

I don't think I necessarily agree with everything in this article, but I post some of it mainly for the scripture references.

3,964 posted on 03/23/2006 10:56:57 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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