[HarleyD]

Thus, Jonah, rather than continuing to run or denying the source of the storm, chose to accept God's will.

Excuse me but Jonah in his "free will" was to head to Tarshish. God forced him back. I thought you were arguing that man has a "free will"?

I agree, God brought Jonah to repentance - but as St. Augustine says - NOT without man! Again, you forget that Catholics believe that BOTH are operative in these actions. Jonah realized God's work and acquised to it - but it was God working in Jonah to move Jonah's will. It is not a case of either/or. It is NOT Pelagianism, as I have explained over and over. NOWHERE do I say that we come to God ALONE.

No, I didn't forget. I believe I pointed out this was John Cassian's view. Surely you remember that the Council of Orange condemned Cassian. If my fast reading is correct, you never did address the issue.

Isn't the OT covenant a shadow of the NT covenant? Why is it a shadow? Because it is not perfected. God's revelation to mankind is clearly not perfected in the OT.

I'm not sure if this is simply a slip. I believe the Catholic Church's position is that the OT is just as "perfect" as anything else. I would agree that it was not complete for God was evolving His word. However, all scripture is inspired by God and is profitable...

Imperfect revelation was given to the Jews.

I'm not sure what you mean by "imperfect" revelation. Our Lord Jesus told the Jews:

Joh 5:39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

Thus, our paradigm is with Christ in mind - and why we refuse the idea that man is evil or man has no free will.

And, sadly, that is where you, and many others, error. People set up a paradigm and wrap scripture around it. They hold a Greek perspective of our Lord Jesus and everything revolves around it-the God of Love. Sort of like the male version of Aphrodites (without the lust).

The scriptures state man is DEAD to sin and yet people say he is sick-not dead. The scriptures state God leads us to repentance and yet people state man has to cooperate. The scriptures state that God gives man 1) grace, 2) repentance, 3) faith, 4) wisdom, 5) knowledge, 6) understanding and still people insist man is capable of making a choice. Verses which do not accommodate their paradigm either become a "mystery" or is misconstrued.

Cooperation and faith is one in the same-the Pelagius/Cassian/Arminius lie. God gives a person faith. Faith is faith. You can't reject faith. And if you have faith, then you believe.

As Augustine and other church fathers point out; there is not one thing that you have that has not been given you by God.

[annalex]

People set up a paradigm and wrap scripture around it

3,744 verses long you were not able to read s single scripture word in a way that would convince me you understand it. You quote from incorrect translations, you don't understand what the verse says, you offer fantastic interpretations of clear scripture, and when pressed to the corner you change the subject. Is chutzpah in the scripture?

[jo kus]

I believe I pointed out this was John Cassian's view. Surely you remember that the Council of Orange condemned Cassian. If my fast reading is correct, you never did address the issue.

I think you are going to have to show me where the Council of Orange taught something that the Church no longer teaches, or that the Council taught that man has no free will.

I believe the Catholic Church's position is that the OT is just as "perfect" as anything else. I would agree that it was not complete for God was evolving His word. However, all scripture is inspired by God and is profitable...

The OT Scripture is inspired by God - but its theology is not "perfected". Again, we can consider the question of evil and how Christ Himself corrects the misunderstanding of WHY God allows evil. Christ ALSO corrects and perfects the application and understanding of the Law in Matthew 5-7. These are just a few examples on how the OT Covenant, while irrevocable, is just one step along the way to Jesus Christ, God's final and perfect Revelation.

I'm not sure what you mean by "imperfect" revelation. Our Lord Jesus told the Jews:

Most Jews didn't realize that the Suffering Servant was referring to the Messiah, for example. Thus, it was imperfect in that it was hidden from most people.

And, sadly, that is where you, and many others, error. People set up a paradigm and wrap scripture around it. They hold a Greek perspective of our Lord Jesus and everything revolves around it-the God of Love. Sort of like the male version of Aphrodites (without the lust).

EVERYONE does, including you. Regarding the "Greek" perspective, I don't have any idea of what you are talking about. Greeks were VERY offended by the idea that God, the transcendent creator of all, would become man. That was something they had a difficult time conceiving. Regarding the "God of Love" being Greek, the concept is entirely Biblical.

As Augustine and other church fathers point out; there is not one thing that you have that has not been given you by God.

They also talk about secondary causes - and as I have amply shown, they also believed in free will. There is not one thing that God has not given you. True. AND. God does not save man without man. St. Augustine said a lot of things that you don't seem to be aware of.

Regards