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To: annalex; HarleyD
The context is of grace and goodness, not of sin and evil. To use Ephesians 1:11 as a prooftext of God ordaining evil is another instance of Protestant abuse of scripture.

The original question was whether God ordained the fall of Adam. You don't seem to like that idea, and apparently, you think that if God had done so, it would have been evil. If true, why do you think that? Do you believe that God is sovereign, and could ordain as He pleases, irrespective of your judgment on whether something is good or evil?

Do you look at what God does and then judge: "that was good or that was evil"? OR, do you look at what God does and say: "that thing that God did, it is good"? OR, do you look at what God does and say: "I really hope things turn out the way God wanted them to, He's a good God and He really deserves only the best things to happen to Him"?

The whole point I'm making is: what does sovereignty mean to you? If God didn't want Adam to fall, did God have any options? Does God get what He wants or not?

3,667 posted on 03/17/2006 4:32:56 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; HarleyD
The original question was whether God ordained the fall of Adam. You don't seem to like that idea, and apparently, you think that if God had done so, it would have been evil. If true, why do you think that?

God did not ordain the fall of Adam because the scripture does not say He did, but rather describes the episode and indicates the opposite. Since the sin is associated with evil, and Adam sinned, God causing sin would have been an evil God. This is the intellectual proof that He did not; but like I said, I don't need to get intellectual over it because the scripture tells us it was Adam's free will.

what does sovereignty mean to you?

It means that God's will overcomes all obstacles. For example, if it is God's will to make us in His image and give us free will, then we'll have free will. As God wills.

3,675 posted on 03/17/2006 7:33:26 AM PST by annalex
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