[HarleyD]

There are a number of Scriptural verses that support free choice. See my tagline, for example.

I believe I offered that the explanation to Deut 30 was found in Deut 31. A succient verse that sums all this up is:

"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you." John 15:16

No one here is defining free will as the Arminian defines it.

Certainly people are defining it as Pelagius.

"Therefore," says the Pelagian, "He foreknew who would be holy and immaculate by the choice of free will, and on that account elected them before the foundation of the world in that same foreknowledge of His in which He foreknew that they would be such. Therefore He elected them," says he, "before they existed, predestinating them to be children whom He foreknew to be holy and immaculate. - Augustine

I know. Augustine was wrong. I guess that makes the Pelagian right.

God, since He sees into ALL time, can see our response to His graces.

Oops, look above.

I don't think a non-Calvinist would say God ordains evil - that would make Him responsible for evil....there is a difference between "allowing" and "actively forcing" someone to do something.

Unless you have an explanation for my Pharaoh example of how God could hardened Pharaoh's heart, your comment is a bit disingenuous. God certainly FORCIBLY changed Paul's life. Apparently being blinded for three days was enough to change Paul's direction. And he's not even in the Old Testament.

[annalex]

Is hardening of heart equivalent to making Pharaoh kill the Jews? The very metaphore suggests that the decision was Pharaoh's.

[jo kus]

I believe I offered that the explanation to Deut 30 was found in Deut 31.

God judges us on our choices that we make. I disagree with your exegesis of Deut 31. As to John 15:16, Jesus is talking about the Apostles, not all people who choose to be Christians.

I know. Augustine was wrong. I guess that makes the Pelagian right.

Please. Pelagian was wrong. I have already given you the heart of Pelagianism, as seen by St. Augustine. It is the ability to come to God WITHOUT God.

God, since He sees into ALL time, can see our response to His graces.

Oops, look above. (referring to a St. Augustine clip)

Again, you only post part of the clip. Pelagian's idea of free will is different then the Catholic's idea of free will. To Pelagian, it is decidely a free will WITHOUT God. St. Augustine refutes that. And while later, St. Augustine considers that God chooses men WITHOUT foreknowledge of man's response, this is not taught by the Church. Considering how God sees time, I don't see how God can NOT see our response to His love - since He sees all time as one instant.

Unless you have an explanation for my Pharaoh example of how God could hardened Pharaoh's heart, your comment is a bit disingenuous

Hardly. You yourself mentioned that Exodus notes that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, AND Pharaoh hardened HIS OWN HEART. Thus, even the Scripture does not weigh in on one side or the other. We Catholics say there is an unexplainable interaction. You continue (along with your Arminian counterparts) to argue the EITHER / OR.

God certainly FORCIBLY changed Paul's life

I disagree. Paul recognized the Lord's voice - but Paul didn't HAVE to go to Damascus. He obeyed the Lord because He chose to based on the tools God gave him and his decision to follow Who he believed was God. Certainly, God knew that Paul would - before the earth was created (if we look at this from inside time).

Regards