So all men are saved, then??? The Bible says that Christ died for the sin of ALL men. EVERYONE. Despite your ignoring these Scriptures, it is so. And yet, we know that some people will not be saved.
Of course we both know that not all men are saved. The work of Christ's sacrifice was sufficient to pay the debt of all men, but it was only efficacious to the elect. The Bible NEVER, EVER states that Christ died for the sin of all men. It NEVER says this. I can prove it. From our earlier discussions of Romans 3:23 you taught me that "All men" never means "All men". Instead, it means a particular subset of all men. So, with that freedom that you taught me, I'll choose to say that all the verses you have lined up to say that Christ died for the sins of all men really, actually only apply to "All" of the elect. That way we remain consistent, "All" doesn't mean "All". :)
"the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered" Romans 8:26
Present tense. Right now... Why would the Spirit be interceding for us NOW, after "it's all done"?
That is referring to intercession in prayer. We always need prayer throughout our lives. So, I agree with the tense. Here is my version:
Rom. 8:26 : In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.
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It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us Romans 8:34
Now, Christ is INTERCEDING right NOW? In the present? AFTER He died for our sins and said "It is finished"?
I agree with you that He does. He answers our accusers and hears our pleas. At the time of judgment He will act as our personal lawyer and judge. (A very nice deal for the elect, BTW! :) When Christ died His work to pay for our sins was complete. No further payment, through good works, or receiving of sacraments, or anything else was required. But that doesn't mean that Jesus then exited our lives. He remains very active, IMO.
So when God commanded us to ask for forgiveness, it wasn't so that He'd forgive us our sins? What exactly are we asking for?
No, it was so that He would forgive our sins. Forgiveness of sins is necessary for salvation. After salvation, it is part of our sanctification, and is the will of God. The regenerated heart wants to obey, but we are not earning God points with each seeking of forgiveness.
Why does God give men the power to forgive sins AFTER His Resurrection?
He doesn't. :)
What is Paul talking about in 2 Cor 5 about the "ministry of reconciliation"?
Paul is saying that all believers should spread the good news of the Gospel to the unsaved. Notice that in 18 and 19 it is God who is doing all the reconciling, there is no "Co-".
If all my sins are forgiven before I even ask for forgiveness, then why aren't all men saved?
Good question. The answer is because only the sins of the elect are forgiven for all time. Christ didn't die to save the non-elect.
FK: "He already knew who would be saved and who would be lost. Yet, He spoke to many of the lost anyway. Why would He waste His time?"
Say what? It's not a "waste of time" to reach out to people, those you love, even when you know they are heading down a path of being "lost".
You take me completely out of context. Here was my full statement:
One thing Jesus was doing is teaching us that the whole world is a mission field from our POV. Of course, He already knew who would be saved and who would be lost. Yet, He spoke to many of the lost anyway. Why would He waste His time?
I was asking a rhetorical question. I was trying to show you that Jesus was teaching us how we should live by example. Jesus already knew that His words would fall on deaf ears among the lost, yet He spoke to them anyway. He was showing us what to do because we don't have His inside knowledge.
The God of Love loves unconditionally - even His "enemies".
I know that Jesus taught a principle to us that we should love our enemies, but do you believe it is absolute? Does God love satan?
Come on. How many times have I said WE don't know we are of the elect? Is this really such a difficult concept?
You've said it many times, and it is a difficult concept for me because I DO know. :)
[Re: Ez 18:21-24] Brother, isn't it clear that WE can come into righteousness, or come into wickedness, even after our Baptism/Sinner's Prayer?
Sort of, but I wouldn't use the word "can". I would say that after either a Baptism or a Sinner's Prayer (respectively), the elect "will" come into righteousness, and the non-elect "will" be in wickedness. I would say that's true for a Catholic or Protestant.
Saved to us means we are healed. We have taken the first step to eternal heaven. This does not mean we will MAKE IT to heaven. Thus, our "salvation" here on earth, our Baptism, is not salvation for eternity, like it means for you. Thus, what "ping-pong" are you talking about? We never said we are "saved for heaven infallibly" to begin with!
I got that idea from a conversation I had with another FR Catholic. It was probably on another thread, although I can't swear that I have ever been on another thread. :)
She told me, in essence, that once you confess your sins to a priest you are in a "saved" state, such that if you were hit by a bus walking home from the church you would be saved. However, upon the commission of the next mortal sin, you were then automatically transferred into a damned state until such time as you would have your next confession. There were standard "outs" that she and I discussed, such as what would happen if you got run over by a bus on your way to confession. :) Anyway, that's what made me think of this as a ping-pong effect. It appeared to me that salvation was won and lost, and won and lost all the time. So, that's where it comes from.
LOLOL. God put you where He wants you. 8~)
She told me, in essence, that once you confess your sins to a priest you are in a "saved" state, such that if you were hit by a bus walking home from the church you would be saved. However, upon the commission of the next mortal sin, you were then automatically transferred into a damned state until such time as you would have your next confession. There were standard "outs" that she and I discussed, such as what would happen if you got run over by a bus on your way to confession. :) Anyway, that's what made me think of this as a ping-pong effect. It appeared to me that salvation was won and lost, and won and lost all the time. So, that's where it comes from.
Regarding the "ping-pong" effect, that's how salvation has been explained to me by many RCs, including a priest.
Upon leaving the Confessional, all sins have been forgiven. And a moment later, the person begins to sin again and is again in need of a priestly administration of the sacrament of Confession.
The sacrament is given, all sins absolved...and upon leaving the Confessional the cycle begins again.
This is one reason RCs find it so difficult to leave the church -- because they are told without the priestly-administered sacraments, no salvation is possible.
It looks to be a very tentative salvation.
But Scripture tells us otherwise:
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." -- Hebrews 6:4-6"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
We are cautioned not to think we can crucify Him again. Christ's sacrifice was singular, complete and accomplished all God that intended.
Yes.
The Bible NEVER, EVER states that Christ died for the sin of all men. It NEVER says this.
I gave you two verses that says just that, both from the Johannine Corpus... What more do you want? Christ died for the sin of the world (nothing about the word "all". The world. How you gonna get around that?) - just as Adam's sin was sufficient to remove sanctifying grace from all men. It appears we agree that Christ's work is not efficacious for all men, though.
As to your freedom to use "all", you have to prove that ALL does not mean ALL (universal). I think I have sufficiently shown that Paul was not making an universal statement, but merely repeating some Psalms that talk about the wicked. Want proof??
"Blessed [are] the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD. Blessed [are] they that keep his testimonies, [and that] seek him with the whole heart. They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways. Thou hast commanded [us] to keep thy precepts diligently." Psalm 119:1-4. By the way, this Psalm is an incredible testimony to the Law. Consider reading its 176 verses!
As you can see, the Scripture tells us that some men DO seek God. Thus, knowing that God cannot contradict, we must try to ascertain these apparent contradictions. After a bit of reading, we see the Psalmster and Paul are refering to the wicked, not ALL (universal) men. This cannot be said with your interpretation of "all" in refuting that Jesus died for the sin of all men.
That is referring to intercession in prayer. (Rom 8:26)We always need prayer throughout our lives.
Certainly. So what is the answer? Why does God's Spirit intercede for us today if "all is done"?
I agree with you that He does. He answers our accusers and hears our pleas. At the time of judgment He will act as our personal lawyer and judge. (A very nice deal for the elect, BTW! :) When Christ died His work to pay for our sins was complete. No further payment, through good works, or receiving of sacraments, or anything else was required. But that doesn't mean that Jesus then exited our lives. He remains very active, IMO.
You want your cake and eat it too. What you give in the beginning (Jesus intercedes for us today) is taken away (His work to pay for our sins was complete) in the next sentence. Is Christ active or not? Is His "work" finished?
(re: why we ask for forgiveness of sins) it was so that He would forgive our sins. Forgiveness of sins is necessary for salvation. After salvation, it is part of our sanctification, and is the will of God
YES! Wonderful. And some will not ask for this forgivness that Christ has won for all men, correct? Thus, Christ died for ALL men, but ALL men will not ASK for that gift that was won by our Savior. Without ASKING, we shall not RECEIVE this forgiveness, nor salvation.
He doesn't. :) (re: giving men the power to forgive sins)
You are in denial.
"he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained. " John 20:22-23
What more can I say?
Paul is saying that all believers should spread the good news of the Gospel to the unsaved. Notice that in 18 and 19 it is God who is doing all the reconciling, there is no "Co-".
Sadly, ignoring Scripture is starting to become a trademark here.
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Scripture is showing it is Paul and other elders he is refering to when he is speaking to the Corinthians. "God asks you through us". God beseeches you by us". "WE pray YOU be in God's good graces". Of course God is doing the reconciling - THROUGH "us", men who have been previously been given such authority.
Christ didn't die to save the non-elect.
Your version of God does not love man unconditionally, does He? Christ died for all men. Unconditionally.
Jesus already knew that His words would fall on deaf ears among the lost, yet He spoke to them anyway. He was showing us what to do because we don't have His inside knowledge.
Interesting. So Jesus KNEW that His teachings would fall on deaf ears - but He did it anyways. BUT. Jesus DID NOT DIE for all men, even though that would ALSO fall on deaf ears. I have discovered another inconsistent statement of your theology.
I know that Jesus taught a principle to us that we should love our enemies, but do you believe it is absolute? Does God love satan?
LOL!!! PRINCIPLE? That is the heart of the Gospel! To go BEYOND the Law. We are to LOVE UNCONDITIONALLY, just as God does. Even the Gentiles "love" those who treat them well. Big friggin' deal. Christians are CALLED to LOVE as God loves. How could you not know that? Of course God loves Satan. But Satan, sadly, is the Prodigal Son who never will return. Satan is part of God's plan. Without Satan, how could man have received the Incarnation?
You've said it many times, and it is a difficult concept for me because I DO know. :)
"Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." Paul speaking to 'eternally saved' Christians. 1 Cor 10:12. I will disagree with you until you can prove that 10 years from now, you will continue to abide in Christ...
Brother, isn't it clear that WE can come into righteousness, or come into wickedness, even after our Baptism/Sinner's Prayer? (re: Ez 18:21-24)
Sort of...
LOL!!! Are you SURE you believe that the Bible is God's inspired word, or is it more correct to say "your interpretation of Scripture is inspired by God"? I see an accelerating move away from what is clearly delineated in the Scriptures so that your little Calvinist mindset does not totally come crashing down. Just in this letter, you appear to be in total denial of the plain meaning of over a half dozen Scripture verses! Anything to save poor old Calvin.
She told me, in essence, that once you confess your sins to a priest you are in a "saved" state, such that if you were hit by a bus walking home from the church you would be saved. However, upon the commission of the next mortal sin, you were then automatically transferred into a damned state until such time as you would have your next confession. There were standard "outs" that she and I discussed, such as what would happen if you got run over by a bus on your way to confession. :) Anyway, that's what made me think of this as a ping-pong effect. It appeared to me that salvation was won and lost, and won and lost all the time. So, that's where it comes from.
OK. Well, we don't bounce in and out of the state of mortal sin! She is speaking more hypothetically, I believe. Yes, after confession, and subsequent death, our soul will likely attain eternal life. But mortal sins are not something done everyday. They require "grievous sin, done willingly, and knowing the sin will separate us from God". All three must be present. We aren't forced or we don't sin this way through ignorance. It is a malicious and premeditated sin. Do you think Catholics or Protestants move into and out of God's love like that? Men do need to be "rehealed" or "saved again", if you will. But this is not some common occurence. Just as Ez 18 mentions, righteous men can become wicked and vice versus, depending on their actions!
Regards